How do YOU fire form Ackley Cartridges?

[5280Reloader]

I have actual Nosler 280AI brass. But if I didn't, I would have loaded up rounds in 280 brass and shot those.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I copied this summary from an old Outdoor Life magazine article: "A wildcatter in Idaho back in the mid-20th century created a line of wildcats from .25- to .30-caliber based on the .30-06 case. Rocky Gibbs took most of the taper out of the cases, pushed the shoulder forward, sharpened it to 35-degrees, and necked it to caliber. Most innovative was his "front ignition primer" via a flash tube extender that delivered the flame toward the front of the powder column, ostensibly for more efficient burning. Mr. Gibbs advertised his 30 Gibbs as the "world's most powerful .30-06, driving 180-grain bullets as fast as 3,100 fps. Independent tests have shown that, when loaded to equal pressures, the Gibbs added just 104 fps to the velocity of the .30-06. Mr. Gibbs, however, touted his cartridge design as contributing to minimal bolt thrust, so traditional indications of excessive pressure, such as a sticky bolt lift, weren't evident. His cases were sold and loaded without the bothersome internal flash extender tube, too. Gibbs claimed 3,175 fps for his .270 version spitting a 150-grain bullet." My brother chronoed dad's 270 Gibbs using Herters Round nose 150gr bullets at +3000 fps. The Gibbs wildcats where really popular in the 1950's around the western Montana home where I grew up. Working class guys couldn't afford the early magnums in expensive guns like the Weatherbys. There was lots of inexpensive military surplus brass and 4831 powder (I think dad paid about 50 cents/lb for 50 lb kegs still in the military containers). Dad's hunting party carried 270 Gibbs, 30 Gibbs, 6.5 Gibbs, or 8 MM Gibbs. All those cases were hydraulically formed that created the short neck case with a rounded shoulder form 30-06 brass. They then loaded ammo at minumum loads to fire form the cases, producing the classic sharp Gibbs shouldered cases. I attached a photo of the Gibbs sizing die with the hydraulic accessory fyi. There should be lots of 1903 Springfieds (cost about $17 from the Civilian Marksmanship Program) sporterized along with some fine old Pre-War Model 70's floating around where I grew up. Probably collecting dust because nobody understands what they are!!

Thanks for sharing Jack!

 

[Hugnot]

You should find a mentor and learn to make fireforming work for you. Also, if you are rebarreling to 6mm AI continually, fireforming brass at the end of barrel life makes sense and can be done quick with a water source and cheap components.

I see your point - use the old shot out barrel to fire form that 1st 200, but that requires buying bullets, primers, & powder. COW fire forming is a cheap alternative. Some confusion here - "fireforming brass at the end of barrel life makes sense and can be done quick with a water source and cheap components." I take this as bullet fireform with old barrel or hydro form with water. Would cheap components be COW and pistol powder?

My last AI barrel had a short chamber requiring using a short or ground down shell holder to reduce headspace to allow bolt closing on 6mm Rem brass. A first for me. If I used this barrel to fireform brass the fireformed brass would have excessive headspace for a normal crush fit 6mm AI chamber in the new barrel. Using brass fireformed in a certain chamber and then using that ammo in another chamber/barrel would be like using factory ammo - not best accuracy potential for headspace concerns & case separation potential. Having brass fireformed in same chamber for intended use makes me happy.

Shooting is an expensive sport and I use all ways to cut costs but achieve desired results.

As for mentors -unfortunately, most of them are dead but I am open for all suggestions regarding my simple ammo production methods.

I struggled thru chemistry, math, statistics & physics, and use that fundamental education for assisting in ammo production & shooting - that with successful participation in competitive rifle shooting at the expert level combined with experience with assisting with real gunsmith work has enabled me to produce many rounds of accurate rifle ammo during the past 50 years. I learned at the grade school level that fluids such as water cannot be compressed.

Shooting is fun & saving money makes for more shooting & more fun! The production & marketing of gun stuff is big business.

Happy & safe shooting!



I

 

[FEENIX]

I used to know a gentleman in Ralls Texas that shot a .270 Gibbs. I think he used the false Shoulder method for fire-forming his brass. That was back in 1969. He used a 26" barrel. It had lots of reach and was very accurate for the time. How close is the .30 Gibbs to the .308 Hawk/Scovill?

That's exactly what I showed in #8.

 

[del2les]

responding

My desired ammo count for frequently used rifles, including the 6mm AI is 200 rounds or 4 plastic boxes of 50.

Upon completion of my nice 6mm AI brass I load ammo using Redding F/L 6mm AI size die without expander on turned necks, Lee (inexpensive) 6mm Rem collet dies to size my turned necks (.268 diameter), either Hornady 6mm seat or Lee 6mm Rem seat die and Lee (inexpensive) 6mm Rem factory crimp die to crimp bullets in AI cases. I anneal cases after fire forming and then every 5 rounds. This should also work for .22-.250AI, .280 AI & others.

View attachment 452008

Barrel life is to be considered. Assuming a 1500 round premium barrel life for the 6mm AI, firing 200 bullets when forming cases would be 200/1500 or 13% of barrel life spent on fireforming with substandard ballistics assuming an AI round was desired to improve ballistic performance.

Bullet costs - 100 Hornady SPBT bullets cost between $25-$30 per hundred - 200 bullets needed, $50 - $60. Among the cheapest 6mm bullet.

Powder costs - the cheapest suitable bullet fireforming powder at my LGS without hazmat would run $32.00 per 7000 grains/pound (RS Hunter), a fireform load would use 40-43 grains of Hunter or 175 - 163 bullet fire forms per pound of the cheapest powder available, another pound purchase would be needed to complete 200 round bullet fire forming.

Primers!!! Large rifle primers are real pricey & difficult to find. Assuming $125 per thou, 200 rounds would be $25 - provided they are available at $125 without hazmat costs. With hazmat/shipping added go for $140 + $50 = $190/1000 or 200 * $0.19 = $38

Total cost to fire form with bullets, rifle powder & large rifle primers (including hazmat) = $125 - $137 per 200. This is to be compared with availability of large pistol primers without hazmat, relatively tiny charges of pistol powder, & free dried out used coffee grounds (sun dried or hair drier). We drink Starbuck's coffee - real nice brew with bottled water to avoid corruption of city water via ancient pipes (loaded with iron, calcium & whatever).

Barrel life - using up 13% of a $400 - $500 re-barrel job = $52 - $65. Total costs refreshed = $177 - $202 per 200 rounds bullet fire formed with substandard performance.

Now there is one method I have not tried.......coffee grounds, but I assume it works very much like COW.
Only question is, dark or medium roast? I would have to use dark.

 

[Hired Gun]

i quit fire forming brass long ago. Its a waste of time and money. As long as the load fits I simply load my Ackley load into new brass and use it. It took over 3 years to fireform 100 brass in our sub 5 pound 7-08AI with 150 grain Accubonds. I those 3 years we killed a bunch of varmints, a stack of deer and busted a bunch of rocks.

My first rifle was a Ruger 77 in 7mmRM and the chamber was pretty loose. My desired load would not fit in factory Rem or Winchester brass but after one firing I could fit the extra 10 grains of 4831 I needed to get my 160 AB's out at 3100 fps.

 

[milo-2]

I see your point - use the old shot out barrel to fire form that 1st 200, but that requires buying bullets, primers, & powder. COW fire forming is a cheap alternative. Some confusion here - "fireforming brass at the end of barrel life makes sense and can be done quick with a water source and cheap components." I take this as bullet fireform with old barrel or hydro form with water. Would cheap components be COW and pistol powder?

My last AI barrel had a short chamber requiring using a short or ground down shell holder to reduce headspace to allow bolt closing on 6mm Rem brass. A first for me. If I used this barrel to fireform brass the fireformed brass would have excessive headspace for a normal crush fit 6mm AI chamber in the new barrel. Using brass fireformed in a certain chamber and then using that ammo in another chamber/barrel would be like using factory ammo - not best accuracy potential for headspace concerns & case separation potential. Having brass fireformed in same chamber for intended use makes me happy.

Shooting is an expensive sport and I use all ways to cut costs but achieve desired results.

As for mentors -unfortunately, most of them are dead but I am open for all suggestions regarding my simple ammo production methods.

I struggled thru chemistry, math, statistics & physics, and use that fundamental education for assisting in ammo production & shooting - that with successful participation in competitive rifle shooting at the expert level combined with experience with assisting with real gunsmith work has enabled me to produce many rounds of accurate rifle ammo during the past 50 years. I learned at the grade school level that fluids such as water cannot be compressed.

Shooting is fun & saving money makes for more shooting & more fun! The production & marketing of gun stuff is big business.

Happy & safe shooting!



I

I understand, my post sounded a little harsh, but if done right, no reason FF needs to be considered a waste of barrel life.

 

[thomasbangs]

I had a 338-06 Ackley Improved built about 25 years ago on a 98 Mauser action. I read and looked up articles on fire forming brass and this is what worked for me. I started with new Winchester brass (it was much better brass 25 or so years ago than the Winchester brass today), I lubed the cases with Pacific/Unique lube with my fingers making sure to get the inside of the neck with a Q tip, I then carefully run it up in a Redding full length 338-06 AI sizing die slowly to get by the expander button, after a thorough cleaning I then load my fire forming load which is 56 grains of IMR 4350 beneath a Speer 200 gr SP. I seat the bullet long enough that I finish seating the bullet against the lands when I close the bolt. I get a perfect 338-06 AI after firing. When fire forming my first lot of brass I noticed how accurate this fire forming load was and decided it was plenty good enough to hunt elk, deer, or bear at modest ranges say out to 200-225 yds. At that time I was invited to go bear hunting with a friend of mine. The load worked perfect on a mature Black bear at close range. I would not hesitate to shoot a elk with it like I said before. When fire forming at the range I would usually only fire 6 or 8 rounds at a time, when I went hunting with this fire forming load I seated the bullets I was going to take hunting beforehand in the manner I described.

 

[K.E.C. Darkside]

Holy Cow. 8 pages.

 

[randy86314]

What picture?

The pic in post #8 above

 

[cabelasken]

i quit fire forming brass long ago. Its a waste of time and money. As long as the load fits I simply load my Ackley load into new brass and use it. It took over 3 years to fireform 100 brass in our sub 5 pound 7-08AI with 150 grain Accubonds. I those 3 years we killed a bunch of varmints, a stack of deer and busted a bunch of rocks.

My first rifle was a Ruger 77 in 7mmRM and the chamber was pretty loose. My desired load would not fit in factory Rem or Winchester brass but after one firing I could fit the extra 10 grains of 4831 I needed to get my 160 AB's out at 3100 fps.

I had a loose chambered 270 that would not shoot anything close to max loads inside of 2", but loads that were in the middle of the load chart would print 5 shot 1/2" groups all day long. I killed every deer i shot at with 2750 FPS 130 Grain loads with that rifle. You could see the stretch in first fired brass and the shiny ring showed up in 20 to 25 % of the first fired so I just neck sized for the second and third loadings. Brass never made it past the third loading.

 

[thomasbangs]

The reason many of us has to fire form a lot of AI calibers is you can't buy new unfired brass for some of the AI calibers. I have never seen 338-06 Ackley Improved brass.

 

[FEENIX]

The pic in post #8 above

I do not know what you mean by it does not look right to you.

 

[Playtimefun]

Good day folks.

I just picked up 2 lbs of H50BMG thinking (hoping) that I can use this for fireforming 257 Roberts AI brass. Is anyone using this powder for fireforming?