Okay, so let me get this straight, I am irresponsible for shooting a deer at 1000 yards with my 260 but you are A-okay at 900 yards with your 260? This considering that my bullet will be flying faster due to the higher BC, allowing for less drop, less drift error, more ft lbs, and more expansion?
Are you having a problem reading today?
"OVER 1,000yards". I'm shooting a bullet at under 900yds with a BC of 571.
Velocity
(fps)3000 2833 2673 2518 2368 2223 2083 1949 1820 1697 1581
Energy
(ft.-lb.)2598 2317 2062 1830 1618 1427 1253 1096 956 831 722
You are talking about shooting at OVER 1,00yds with a bullet with a BC of .585
Velocity
(fps)3000 2837 2680 2529 2382 2240 2103 1971 1844 1723 1608
Energy
(ft.-lb.)2798 2502 2233 1987 1764 1560 1375 1208 1057 923 804
The Bullet I have selected has more energy and velocity along with less drop at my max range than the bullet you are suggesting for beyond 1000yds where you are already down to 800ft/lbs of energy. Yes I consider that to be irresponsible.
I am selecting a bullt that is designed to mushroom predicably at that speed/energy and you are choosing one that does nothing predictably or consistently on contact with the game animal at the range you are suggesting it be used.
Yes, I consider that irresponsible.
The AMAX is not a frangible bullet, it's just one that tends to come apart when it hits anthing solid and does so in unpredicable ways. Frangible bullets are designed to break up in specifically predicatable ways.
I am also irresponsible for shooting a target bullet for long range shots even though they expand better at those distances and cause more damage but you are just fine shooting sirocco's to 900 yards even though the velocity in a 260 is nearly 300 fps below what Swift recommends for proper bullet expansion?
I draw my line in the sand because at 900yds, I have reached the limit of what Swift recommends velocity wise for this bullet.
I wonder what all the hunters did before the days of premium bullets where all they had were standard jacketed lead filled bullets. I am surprised my Dad and Granddad ever killed anything.
Simple they didnt' shoot a hell of a lot of medium and large game beyond 500yds and when they did they used massive bullets that due to their mass delivered enough energy on target to get the job done. We've had great premium hunting bullets however since the fifties.
Shooting hogs, which are about as tough on a bullet as you can get in the US, is completely different than shooting antelope, deer, and even elk in many respects. Not sure I would use that experience to determine performance on thin skinned animals.
Yes they are, that is why I didn't base my deicions based solely on hogs at long range. As I stated most of the were not shot beyond 450yds.
In addition, I don't aim for the point of the shoulder nor do I ever want to hit the point of the shoulder. If I do hit there I was way off target. Ideally this happens in a very small percentage of shots, less than 5% for sure. So why would I pick a bullet that may make 5% of my shots possibly more successful instead of choosing a bullet that performs better on 95% of my shots.
If you wish to claim that you are a consistent sub MOA 1,000yds Plus shooter under actual hutning conditions go right ahead.
Also, do I understand correctly that you do like the VLD hunting bullet, which is designed to blow up internally but don't like the frangbile A-max? The A-max and Berger have more in common IMO than the Berger and premium bullets do, as far as killing performance and bullet performance.
Umm no the VLD Berger has a much heavier jacket than the AMAX which is tapered in it's thickness from the opening to about mid length very similar to the interbond and scirocco; though not as heavy. It is not designed to blow up until after it has penetrated deeply unlike the AMAX which is designed to break up on contact.
From Berger's own website.
Hunting Bullets
The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13" to 15" long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don't go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-447-5456.
The A-max and Berger both shed most of their weight and throw shrapnel in all directions. The benefit the A-max has over the Berger past the velocity limit of 1800-1900 fps is that the A-max will still expand and shed weight well past this 1800 fps where the VLD will not. Here is a good thread regarding shooting a bullet past its velocity limit.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/long-range-elk-mistake-80226/
No the Amax typically comes apart completely losing over 50% of it's mass before even penetrating the rib cage.
Now once again you are moving the bar changing not only the game but the caliber to buttress a failed point.
Finally, you miss one of the biggest reasons that LR hunters use high BC bullets, weather meters, and ballistic programs. It is called error reduction. Call it a crutch if you like but those items all help minimize a significant amount of shooter/shooting error.
No the crutch is using a target bullet that is not designed for this purpose because of it's higher BC in spite of it's bein a poor design choice for killing game reliably.
There is error in range estimation, wind drift, angle to target, atmospheric conditions, trigger pull, steady hold, proper aim point, updrafts, movement of the animal, and on and on. High BC's and ballistic data helps minimize the potential error in every shot. Sure I can use my ballistic program to calculate drop and drift but all the above mentioned variable adds up to a certain amount of error in every shot and a bullet that shoots flatter and has less drift will eliminate the most amount of potential error. It's not about using a chart or ballistic app, its not about having the cool techie bullets or gear. It is about having all or as close to "all" of your shots being one shot kills. Any error reducing factor I can have in my favor I will take.
The higher BC of the target bullet will not grant forgiveness for errors.
We obviously have a very different perspective on LR hunting. Don't get me wrong. There is a valid place for premium hunting bullets. But I think LR guys, especially those new to the sport, should be aware that premium bullets have their negatives just like frangible bullets do. And one of the big negatives are shooting them at LR when their velocity profile is such that proper expansion is unlikely.
Good luck in your shooting friend.
My perspective is a simple one. I don't use a hamer for an axe, nor a chainsaw to carve turkeys. I like one shot kills at any range with minimal wastage and nice through and through shots that cause massive bleeding externally so that when one must start tracking there's something to actually follow, and which ensures a much shorter track.
I've also learned the hard way through experience that when we exceed the purposed design capability of bullets and firearms the game we seek is what suffers.
