Homogenous copper bullets can be inhumane

[WildRose]

I remember seeing this video did anyone ever find out what twist rate barrel the test was performed with or are we just assuming it was appropriate for the bullet being tested as I understand it when using these bullets twist is very critical

People entering these discussions also do so without a basic understanding of the subject matter which always makes things difficult.

Comparably sized Mono's will always be lighter than the Lead core bullet of equal size.

That means to get to an equal weight, the copper bullet will be considerably longer in profile due to the 10-12% difference in density depending on the exact allows being used.

Therefore we're always going to need to use a faster rate of twist when shooting comparable heavy for caliber Mono's vs Conventionals.

The longer a bullet is the faster it has to spin to stabilize.

Too many folks don't understand that so they can get themselves into trouble.

Always check with the mfg to determine what twist rate they suggest for minimum stabilization with any heavy for caliber VLD/hybrid or Mono.

 

[WildRose]

If you are going to conduct a study on bullet performance you usually don't start with the results you want to portray. This guy could work for CDC.

To be credible in the sciences you either have to be able to put your own biases in a box or design your experiments to keep that bias from effecting the results.

Not always easy to do and not always understood by people outside of the sciences.

Even in Academia I was warned early on in my college career to take a look at who funds a given study and factor that into the conclusions because no matter how hard we try we can't always get away from our own biases.

Ten years ago I was extremely critical about the use of Mono's for hunting as well until I was reminded that, we had to turn to them many years ago in a 17 Rem because conventional bullets tended to separate and shred before or just after hitting the target and when they did hit blow massive holes in game/varmints we took with them.

That problem was solved when a friend directed us to a little known company at the time, "Barnes Bullets".

We got on the phone with them discussed the problem and they sent us a box of their original X bullets in .17Rem and instantly our results changed for the better.

Difficult as it is, sometimes we have to open our minds and admit our own biases may be getting in the way of progress.

 

[WildRose]

I didn't read through all 9 pages of this thread, but I did look through the article. I live in California right now and I feel most of the hate for copper bullets comes from an uneducated mindset.
Case in point. My dad has a co-worker that shoots a needmore. This year he shot a buck at 30 yds and the deer didn't even act like he hit it. It took off running, no blood, nothing. Because nobody ever misses, it had to be bullet failure. He was convinced that his Barnes bullet was traveling "too fast" (out of a needmoreI know I know…) to expand at that range so it penciled through. My dad agreed with him until I told him that was 100% false.
This isn't the first time I've heard somebody say this either. Do I shoot copper by choice, no. Will I shoot it when I move back to Florida? Probably not. I do plan on taking some deer with the hammers I have currently. If they kill just as fast and as devastating as my bergers I wouldn't mind switching.

Actually I recovered some deer over the years that were good lung hits with the TSX in which the bullet simply penciled through so it is indeed quite possible.

My German Shorthairs were trackers as well as upland and retrieving dogs and I actually made some ridiculous money tracking deer for guys who lost them on high fenced places and for my neighbors who's relatives were good folks but didn't know much.

After having to do so for the same guy, 3 years in a row finding the exact same problem when we recovered the bucks he finally listened to me and started putting those shots through the shoulders instead of the ribs and I never had to track another for him.

 

[WildRose]

I think my bias is against the cultlike fanbase that continue to push low bc bullets on a longrange hunting site. No bias against the bullets themselves or the company who makes them. If all of my hunting was less than a few hundred yards they might be my huckleberry.

The quality monos we have today have comparable or better BC's than anything available just ten or twenty years ago.

Some of us were very successful with those lower BC bullets.

BC isn't everything, especially inside of 600yards.

 

[WildRose]

My go to bullet for 400 yards or less was Partitions. I have a 1000 of the original Solid Base 180gr for more of the same. I don't see a reason to change. If forced to go green and shoot lead free I'd maybe consider it. Or go bowhunting or fishing.

I watched a friend pushing 180gr Partition straight through a running Muledeer going uphill in a 20 mph crosswind in Colorado circa 1990. The range was measured on a map at just over 880yards.

Not my choice of bullets but, I've seen them work for others.

 

[WildRose]

I'm hoping you're right. 3 years from now the entire west might be all Blue states. Nevada, Arizona, Colorado and New Mexico have all gone blue. Montana, Utah and Texas are on the teetering point and with everyone leaving California for Idaho and Texas I see both of those states being blue by the next election. I think things are looking pretty grim for hunters and gun owners especially with the stranglehold Dems have on voting laws and all these new voters they have spread all over the Country. If they only stopped at lead free I'd be ok with it, but they won't. 2A is in grave danger.

There's no chance either Texas or ID will go blue by the next election. Those are the states serious hunters and shooters are fleeing TO from places like CA and NY.

It's not like MT and WY that are being overrun by NYC and Hollywood liberals.

I think we're ok for a few more years at least.

It's almost a certainty though that we'll see a complete lead ban on public lands over the next 10-20 years.

 

[wv270wsm]

Ok so I have yet to get a load worked up with my hammer bullets . Just haven't had the time .
But I've shot mostly nosler over the last 30 years . I believe that every bullet has a sweet spot with velocity and caliber.
From what I've read the mono bullets need lots of speed to perform as advertised that's why they are light for caliber . Please correct me if I'm wrong .
I've seen ballistic tips kill deer like lightning. I've also witnessed my father who hunted with a 300 weatherby shoot truckloads of deer with 180 gr Hornady bullets and never had one take a step start shooting ballistic tips and deer would run off .
Every bullet has a desired speed in which it performs flawlessly in my opinion.
I believe mono bullets or copper whatever you want to call them will perform just fine when used in the right circumstances. I bought them to up the speed in my kids 7 mm 08 and plan on only letting them shoulder shoot whitetails . Should work like a dream . If not then I'd almost guarantee it wasn't hit where the point of aim was supposed to be.
As far as states going all copper bullets to keep the dodo birds from getting lead poisoning I'd say it'll happen over the next 12 years or so . It's just another form of control they want to have over us

 

[ButterBean]

I think my bias is against the cultlike fanbase that continue to push low bc bullets on a longrange hunting site. No bias against the bullets themselves or the company who makes them. If all of my hunting was less than a few hundred yards they might be my huckleberry.

I'll ask again, do you need to hold for the wind with a high BC bullet?

 

[ButterBean]

Dang bruh, you should start charging me by the hour like those hotels in Japan!! Jen, maybe you can get your boys JB, BB and HB to back you up a little bit here…that way you wouldnt have to break my comments down point by point.

With no longer than you have been here and as much as you seem to know I'm gonna say you've been here before, Gerry Baker1960 maybe but you sure sound a lot like MudRunner

 

[ButterBean]

Just Wow

He's almost there

 

[Len Backus]

Well, you have a bias against telling the truth, and supporting your claims with anything of substance.

BFD Guns

Banned after several warnings.

 

[FEENIX]

To be credible in the sciences you either have to be able to put your own biases in a box or design your experiments to keep that bias from effecting the results.

Not always easy to do and not always understood by people outside of the sciences.

Even in Academia I was warned early on in my college career to take a look at who funds a given study and factor that into the conclusions because no matter how hard we try we can't always get away from our own biases.

Ten years ago I was extremely critical about the use of Mono's for hunting as well until I was reminded that, we had to turn to them many years ago in a 17 Rem because conventional bullets tended to separate and shred before or just after hitting the target and when they did hit blow massive holes in game/varmints we took with them.

That problem was solved when a friend directed us to a little known company at the time, "Barnes Bullets".

We got on the phone with them discussed the problem and they sent us a box of their original X bullets in .17Rem and instantly our results changed for the better.

Difficult as it is, sometimes we have to open our minds and admit our own biases may be getting in the way of progress.

Well said, Brother, you nailed this one; biases exist on both researchers and readers, as evident in this thread. I am going through an academic quality review on my research, and it is crazy what is currently in place and how many levels I have to go through. As you noted, I have to identify possible researcher biases and counter-measures to help alleviate them. I only have to defend why I chose my methodology (quantitative vs. qualitative vs. mixed), the research designs for the method, instruments used for the data collection, tools for the data analysis, etc. In addition, limitations/delimitations, assumptions, and future research recommendations.

You are correct; biases are barriers to progress and learning, just as reluctance/resistance to change.

 

[FEENIX]

BFD Guns

Banned after several warnings.

Thank you, Sir, for keeping us all in check and for allowing us in "Len's living room forum." Peace and God bless!

Ed

 

[xsn10s]

The vitriol illustrated in this thread is an example why I have a developing bias towards certain bullets. And we see the same type of bickering and name calling all over on a variety of topics. It's a shame, and it not constructive. I liken it to the new drug of choice.