high value low cost optics, scopes binoculars, spotters ect.

[mildot1960]

I'm glad to hear about positive experiences in lower cost or older optics to be bought and do the job. I really encourage those experiences myself. Hearing negative 1 time experiences doesn't really help me. When I graduate to longer distances, I'll have learned enough to spend the big money.

Well this is one purpose Hi end gear cant touch, if you buy a 100-200 dollar scope and $350 Rifle when you are just starting and after a couple of months you find that shootings not for you then when you come to sell it on then you are only going to loose 100 maybe 150 bucks, but when your starting out and you buy a $4000 set up then you stand to loose $800+ and when your on a limited income $800 is alot to swollow,

When you start shooting the first 3 months you cant get to the range quick enough and some folks start to loose the drive to go there and shoot,
But most of us just want to keep going and never stop,

Both price ranges of gear serve us all well, The worst Rifle is the one thats covered in dust and it cost can be sky high,

Good luck and get stuck In,

John

 

[MudRunner2005]

Being born and raised hunting, fishing, and being outdoors in the South, I was pretty much born with a gun in my hands. I've never lost my drive to pull a trigger. I'll shoot any gun, recoil doesn't scare me. Then again, I'm kind of a different scenario than most people I know. I can use any weapon proficiently, be-it slingshot, gun, ax, knife, hatchet, archery, pistol, etc... I was brought up using them. It's just part of being born and raised in the south. We know how to survive down here, and it's bred into us to have these instincts. If you've ever heard Hank Williams Jr. - A Country Boy Can Survive, that song really is how my way of life is/was growing up here in Alabama. Not that we're all unintelligent backward hicks, but the fact that we KNOW how to survive, compared to say a business man from up in NYC or out in California who grew up in Los Angeles and has never handled a real weapon in their life. It's just how we grew up. Totally different worlds.

And I love guns. I've always had guns, and have studied them my entire life...From .22 plinkers to military weaponry. It's just something I've always had a fascination with.

Because I love guns so much, I have a fair collection of them, and on a limited budget compared to alot of the guys on here, I can't afford to have a custom rifle built every year, or to have Nighforce scopes on every gun I own.... I WISH I made that kind of money, but I just don't. Therefore, guys like me have to weed out and figure out the best of the budget world, which is why I have SOME nice rifles and scopes, and some cheap ones.

 

[Sully2]

Well this is one purpose Hi end gear cant touch, if you buy a 100-200 dollar scope and $350 Rifle when you are just starting and after a couple of months you find that shootings not for you then when you come to sell it on then you are only going to loose 100 maybe 150 bucks, but when your starting out and you buy a $4000 set up then you stand to loose $800+ and when your on a limited income $800 is alot to swollow,

When you start shooting the first 3 months you cant get to the range quick enough and some folks start to loose the drive to go there and shoot,
But most of us just want to keep going and never stop,

Both price ranges of gear serve us all well, The worst Rifle is the one thats covered in dust and it cost can be sky high,

Good luck and get stuck In,

John

Thats a conjured up story if there ever was one. First off that $550 total cost new once its used you'll be lucky to even get rid of it. People that dont know rifles and scopes wont buy it because they have no idea...and people who DO know said equipment wont touch it like it has the plague.

I ran across a Mod 70 winchester a few weeks ago...was a Shadow model I think...??...in 270 WSM. The thing made a rem 700 SAS look like a work of art..let alone being in a lousy caliber.

With the additional fact that a newbie just starting isnt going to shell out $4000 for a new rifle.

 

[mildot1960]

Thats a conjured up story if there ever was one. First off that $550 total cost new once its used you'll be lucky to even get rid of it. People that dont know rifles and scopes wont buy it because they have no idea...and people who DO know said equipment wont touch it like it has the plague.

With the additional fact that a newbie just starting isnt going to shell out $4000 for a new rifle.

Yes it is a conjured up story but it happens all the same, In 1982 I knew some one who had never owned a gun and they bought A .22 semi auto made by sterling with a 15 shot mag and the total cost $57.95 that guy had a ball with the thing even if it did misfeed every 4th shot but he did'nt care he was shooting and thats all that mattered to him and I caught up with him 14 years later and he still had that thing, But that piece of junk was a stepping stone that led him to greater things,

None of this matters anyway, for some reason some folks seem to believe that life dont exsist below S&B NF and designer Rifles and who ever else can be thown into the mix, But its just not True and the fact is no matter what brand of rifle it is There nothing on this Planet thats gonna out Run it,

The True point of this exercise is Dont Buy the Whole Cow just incase you Dont Like Beef, Ya better off just buying A Ribeye or a slice of Rump,

John

 

[GBA1776]

With the additional fact that a newbie just starting isnt going to shell out $4000 for a new rifle.[/QUOTE]


thats absolutely not true, A guy (now a friend) came to my range with a 8k barrett 99 as his first rifle. And the 2-3k of glass sitting on top of it, (on top of an arrogant attitude) he couldnt shoot for his life.

I had been watching him shoot...badly and hearing him talk trash about other peoples stuff, I challenged him to a "friendly" (not friendly I wanted to wipe that smirk off his face) shooting competition. @300 yds. I made my point, I smoked him, with an ok group, about 5.25" with 5 rounds in a 5-8 mph left to right wind. His .416 is a laser at that distance, but since he flinched at recoil of that punishing round he only landed 2 shots out of 5 on the 12" round target. With 10k worth of rifle and scope and $15 dollar per round hand turned bronze alloy bullets he still shot like crap. After I won and took my prize, (one of his rounds) he started to actually be sort of cool, his attitude completely changed. I told him a few things and let him shoot my rifle, he still had terrible trigger control but thats not a 5 min fix, well the next time he showed up at the range he had the black version of my rifle, Same ammo and everything. Only after starting at the bottom ( a $400 rifle/scope package) did he begin to learn how to shoot.

So as rare as it is people do drop thousands of dollars on there first gun. And before I wrote this I called Steve and asked him if he would have kept shooting if he had only stuck with his Barrett, and the answer was a plain NO!!
he told me that he was so frustrated at spending a bunch of money and not being able to shoot well he was about to give up. He now owns a 22wmr,.223,.243,7mm,.308,.300WSM,.338,.416 and quite a few others in duplicate calibers but all custom guns, even his AR-15 is a Noveske that cost over 2k, and you know what my 16" bushy patrolmans carbine non free floated produces about the same results in our hands, 1-1.5 moa with match ammo

I guess the moral of the story is the shooter is the key, as long as your gun is reasonably accurate and you are reasonably skilled you can shoot well, if your an Ok shot with a rack grade rifle and a nikon, that 3k custom and 2k scope wont make you shoot any better, it just allows very very skilled shooters that are held up by there gear to achieve that little bit extra. And you know what, After shooting all of Steve's custom guns alot, and grouping mostly around .5-.75 MOA Ive found out that the extra 3-5k I would have to spend isnt worth the extra .25 moa (on my best days) I get out of them compared to good high quality rack grade rifle like a Savage 110 or Some of the 700 Rem offerings. that I group .75-1 MOA with. Maybe Im just not skilled/disciplined enough to really get everything out of a rifle, some of the guys I see shoot consistently less that .5 MOA out of there custom guns, only 2 guys at my club can do that out of the hundreds that shoot there. not me though, So maybe this should be less about the gear, and more about the squishy and imperfect thing pulling the trigger. From what ive seen a truly talented shooter can pick up any gun (thats not jacked up) and do well, And I rarely see people that skilled. And I certainly dont see one when I look in the mirror.

 

[GBA1776]

But I do want to point out I didnt start this thread aimed at new people just getting into the sport, I envisioned a thread where guys like me that are on a budget talked about the good high quality low cost stuff they found, Because the fact of the matter is you mostly get what you pay for, and Most 100 dollar scopes suck, But every once in a while you get a great piece of gear for a great price. And i wanted there to be a place where people could share that info, or give warnings about some "higher cost" items that dont live up to the price. because the last thing I want to do is drop $200-400 on a scope and have it be junk. because those are out there as well.

And as it has it, I am still shooting on my $100 tasco 2.5-10 and it still works great, the glass is bright and clear all the way to the edges and I have had no problems shooting in lower light situations, early to mid dusk, once it gets dark enough I cant see anymore without good target contrast but im a target shooter not a hunter so thats not a concern for me.

 

[mildot1960]

Savageman69, I with you all the way on this one.

But Like I said. some folk seem to think that unless you have that 5-8 Grand rig then you are not part of the clan and you dont fit In, some folk think their $**T dont stink but their Farts give em away,

Well I'm good with that, I'm not a religious man but I sure hope God dont make me that Bitter, I Can't Imagine why folks think like this in that you can come here and not Join in or you have no rights because you dont buy your way through Life and so be it, BUT that Amex or gold card wont open the Pearly gates,

Savageman69, weldone Mate for trying to help others I'm Proud of ya,
It's a pitty others did'nt the bigger picture here But I have every confidence that you helped the ones that Matter, WTG Mate.

John

 

[CogburnR]

I bet the junk 270 wsm shadow would have no problem killing elk at 500+ yards with little work. They are actually not that bad. They might not be the answer for 800-1000 but few 500$ rifles are.


A 270 wsm will shoot a 160g 650bc bullet at 3000fps, figure out the ballistics on that and compare it to a 7RM or 300WM. Depending on bullet the 270wsm can easily beat common 7RM and 300WM loadings.



Long Range starts at 600 or so and most people wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 600 (or for many a 5 gallon pail at 100).

A good shooter with a decent shooting 500$ rifle, 100$ stock, and 250$ scope might be fully capable of moa shooting well out past 600 though.

There is nothing wrong with cheaper optics as long as people recognize there are probably real limitations to what they can do. The purpose of this thread is for people to share what lower end optics have performed better than their expectations. It would not be unheard of for a 200$ scope to beat a 500-600$ scope-hence the high value low cost optics.

I think everybody at some point once they shoot a while realize the value of good optics(and rifles), but for a lot of shooting some of the cheaper stuff works fine for practice and learning what is needed to really shoot long range.

If a scope can reliably be dialed and has enough internal adjustments to shoot longer distances hopefully people will list them on this thread instead of people telling other people that everything other than Nightforce and S&B is pure junk and that you can't shoot long range without a 5000$++ rig in 338 Lapua.gun)

 

[mildot1960]

I bet the junk 270 wsm shadow would have no problem killing elk at 500+ yards with little work. They are actually not that bad. They might not be the answer for 800-1000 but few 500$ rifles are.


A 270 wsm will shoot a 160g 650bc bullet at 3000fps, figure out the ballistics on that and compare it to a 7RM or 300WM. Depending on bullet the 270wsm can easily beat common 7RM and 300WM loadings.



Long Range starts at 600 or so and most people wouldn't be able to hit the broad side if a barn at 600 (or for many a 5 gallon pail at 100).

A good shooter with a decent shooting 500$ rifle, 100$ stock, and 250$ scope might be fully capable of moa shooting well out past 600 though.

There is nothing wrong with cheaper optics as long as people recognize there are probably real limitations to what they can do. The purpose of this thread is for people to share what lower end optics have performed better than their expectations. It would not be unheard of for a 200$ scope to beat a 500-600$ scope-hence the high value low cost optics.

I think everybody at some point once they shoot a while realize the value of good optics(and rifles), but for a lot of shooting some of the cheaper stuff works fine for practice and learning what is needed to really shoot long range.

If a scope can reliably be dialed and has enough internal adjustments to shoot longer distances hopefully people will list them on this thread instead of people telling other people that everything other than Nightforce and S&B is pure junk and that you can't shoot long range without a 5000$++ rig in 338 Lapua.gun)

YES on all accounts and Hi Dollar gear is not going to have much of an effect on an average shoot if at all, apart from give em pride in there gear and even folks that Own that Hi Grade stuff should be proud of their achievements and of the gear they Own, I'm all for that, Good for them. they have earned it so why not Spoil them selves, its their Sweat and hard earned Dollars that payed for it,

I guess that I would rather Help some one Than knock em down,

John

 

[Sully2]

thats absolutely not true, A guy (now a friend) came to my range with a 8k barrett 99 as his first rifle. And the 2-3k of glass sitting on top of it, (on top of an arrogant attitude) he couldnt shoot for his life.

That just proves the point that stupidity runs rampant in his family....

 

[Sully2]

I bet the junk 270 wsm shadow would have no problem killing elk at 500+ yards with little work. They are actually not that bad. They might not be the answer for 800-1000 but few 500$ rifles are.


A 270 wsm will shoot a 160g 650bc bullet at 3000fps, figure out the ballistics on that and compare it to a 7RM or 300WM. Depending on bullet the 270wsm can easily beat common 7RM and 300WM loadings.



Long Range starts at 600 or so and most people wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 600 (or for many a 5 gallon pail at 100).

A good shooter with a decent shooting 500$ rifle, 100$ stock, and 250$ scope might be fully capable of moa shooting well out past 600 though.

There is nothing wrong with cheaper optics as long as people recognize there are probably real limitations to what they can do. The purpose of this thread is for people to share what lower end optics have performed better than their expectations. It would not be unheard of for a 200$ scope to beat a 500-600$ scope-hence the high value low cost optics.

I think everybody at some point once they shoot a while realize the value of good optics(and rifles), but for a lot of shooting some of the cheaper stuff works fine for practice and learning what is needed to really shoot long range.

If a scope can reliably be dialed and has enough internal adjustments to shoot longer distances hopefully people will list them on this thread instead of people telling other people that everything other than Nightforce and S&B is pure junk and that you can't shoot long range without a 5000$++ rig in 338 Lapua.gun)

Besides the fact that 270 WSM...like most of the WSM calibers are barrel eaters and this place being a used gun store had no idea how many rounds had gone down the tube. I was mainly looking for a Mod 70 action and the condition of the black plastic stock....the infernal black flaking finish they use on the metal ( same as what appears on Rem SPS models) etc, etc.....Id have given them and honest $250 bid on the gun....NOT the $625 they were asking!

 

[MudRunner2005]

I think with some people, the high-dollar gear gives them more confidence in shooting. For me, it was not this way. I grew up shooting old scopes, low magnification, iron sights, cheap(ish) guns, etc...And learning how to make it work.

I am just as confident with my old $100 Tasco World Class & 7mm-08 Ruger 77 tang-safety, as I am with my Weatherby Mark V AccuMark .257 Wby, or Rem 700 Sendero SF 7mmSTW with Zeiss' sitting on top of them.

I can kill a deer the same amount of dead with a $100 Tasco as I can shooting my A-Bolt with a $1,500 Kahles sitting on it. For the record I acquired the scope used, in a trade with a buddy of mine, there is no way I could ever afford a $1,500 scope on my salary...

Confidence is confidence. And I can understand the whole, "buy good once, and not cheap once, then expensive the next time around, and learn your lesson..." But the fact is...A good shot is a good shot is a good shot. Doesn't matter what name is on your gear.

So I can understand both parts of the arguement. And I am definitely not one to snob someone at the range because they have a Bushnell / Rem 710 combo from Wally World that cost $300.....Although I have shot a couple of those, and none of them would hit the broad side of a barn...But that's besides the point...As long as they're happy with their gear, and they're enjoying shooting, don't judge or criticize them b/c their gear didn't cost as much as yours did, or b/c their rifle is a factory gun, and yours is a tack-driving custom build. I got lucky that all my factory rifles are tack-drivers, and didn't need any custom work done. However, my Smith takes good care of me, and takes care of me on my prices too, b/c he knows I'm not one of his more "well off" customers with deep pockets.... And yes, he is so good at what he does, he has people paying him over $5K for custom rifles... I get ALOT more for my money when I go to him. He's just a good guy, and treats every gun the same as if it were his own. So, if he likes you, and he knows you well, he's gonna always go above and beyond what all you ask him to do. For example, with my last custom I simply paid him to do a barrel swap with a used barrel he had laying around. He only charged me $265 for the barrel, and all the work involved in swapping and truing the barrel. Then he re-bedded the action, floated the barrel, tuned my trigger, cut the barrel to my desired length, re-crowned w/ an 11* match crown, and completely trued the whole rifle up.... For the $265 he charged me... That's what kind of guy he is. And that is why I have used him for the last 11 years. Then the rifle got stolen back in 2008, and I haven't had the money to have him build another one. I'm still sick about that...

Good gear doesn't mean that it costs you 1/4 of your yearly salary to buy it. The $500 scopes of today, are 10x better than the $1,500 scopes of 10 years ago.

I have some cheap gear, and I have some nice high dollar gear. But I am just as confident with either in my hand... I know I can shoot, and it doesn't matter what the names on the gear says when it's in my hands....Whatever I'm shooting at, is dead. And you can bet your last dollar on that.

However, with all that being said, if I could afford to replace all my scopes with NF, S&B, Swaro, etc.....You think I wouldnt? I'd do it in a heartbeat. Better glass is better glass...Hands down. But just b/c something doesn't say your favorite name brand, doesn't mean it deserves to be immediately throwin into the scrap bin.

I see everyone's points on here, and I agree with all of yall. I'm just glad yall can put up with my rambling ***..... Sorry, I get bored behind my desk....

 

[Sami]

If a scope can reliably be dialed and has enough internal adjustments to shoot longer distances hopefully people will list them

Many scopes are able to do that but that's only small portion of the equation. With the lower quality lenses you will lose the ability to see far and that only gets worse when the conditions are not ideal.

 

[GBA1776]

It seems that most are missing the point, Yes high dollar stuff is better obviously, you would have to be a shmuck to spend 3k on a tasco quality scope, however since alot of us dont have that in our budget we must make do with the best we can for the lowest price, If you are sitting here thinking "wow id never put a $200 *** on my gun, I only but real good stuff" you might as well just stop reading and stop posting on this thread. There is no need to try to convince us that a NF or Ziess is awesome, thats a given. We all know it and we all would buy the best if we could but, I can only speak for myself here a NF or US optics would cost me 3 months mortgage payment. And i cant drop that kind of cash on a scope. Thats as plain as it gets, And another part of that is Im not limited by my gear, I can still squeeze more out of my guns with the kit i have. If your a world class shooter, and every millimeter counts, yes you do need the best, but I think if most were honest with themselves, they would be able to say they just are not that good. i know Im not. And my experiences with other peoples very high dollar guns and scopes and hand tuned loads, vs the results I get with a good bedded Factory gun with factory match ammo just reinforce my belief that I have a long way to go before my gear will be the limiting factor in my shooting. As I said in a previous post, out of custom guns I get at best .25 MOA out of it more than an accurate Factory rifle. So until my skill meets or exceeds the level of my gear, a serious upgrade will do me no good. Even then. a few thousand dollars for a few fractions of an inch is a tough sell. Also Id like to point out the Savage Shooting team with off the rack $1200-2,000 rifles have a fistfull of shooting ribbons in open class 1000 yd competitions against 3-4-5-6 thousand dollar custom guns. No those Savage model 12's wont group as tightly at 100yds but they obviously are on the same level @ 1000 yds. the proof is in the results.

Dont get me wrong Id own a housefull of customs if I could, so many of those guns are just so awesome, the pride of owning a fine tuned piece of kit like that speaks for itself, however most customs cost more than the car I drive everyday. I could sell my 69 cutlass and buy a nice custom and a NF, but there is no way ill ever sell my first car. That thing is priceless in my eyes just like Im sure most of your guys custom rifles are in yours. Everyone is different everyone has there own set of priorities. and everyone has there own likes and dislikes, If that 5k custom and 3k glass just turns you on becasue its special and unique, and shoots >.5 MOA more power to ya. Ill never try to convince you to "downgrade" to a match grade factory rifle.
And since I would rather have a roof over my head and more to eat than just top ramen, I wont be dropping $3,000+ on a rifle scope combo anytime soon.
I almost cried when I bought my $400 dollar Aimpoint. It was worth it, but I wont lie clicking "pay now" hurt a little. Im glad I bought it, but I would be even happier if it was only $100.

And here we are again we have gone full circle for the 50th time, and we are back at square one. What out there is the best quality for the lowest price, for guys like me on a budget? Any suggestions?

Ive had good experiences and heard very good things about Nikons M and P223 line of scopes, And with there ballistics program on there website, they can give you a pretty accurate picture of hold over for any load on any of there scopes, so you dont just have to use .223 with those scopes. And ive also heard Millet is pretty good as well but thats just rumor really since ive never seen one on a gun in person I just cant say. Anyone here have a Millet?