sniper2
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Good advice..
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Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?
- Thread starter arthurj
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Mysticplayer
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A couple of things I can add. First, make sure you have a consistent rifle. Doesn't need to be a super BR rig but you must have the confidence that in ideal location, you would know where the bullet will arrive. I feel 1/2MOA is a good min. for a shooter at LR, MOA is max.
Test at different ranges to ensure that the load continues to do what you predict. No use trying to compensate a few inches with a load/rifle that can't hold 1 ft at that distance. Watch changes to your load caused by temp.
Then there is the optics. Some scopes just let you see mirage better then others. I have a Pentax Lightseeker 30. Certainly not the best optics in the world but man can you see mirage. Target image is still very clear. Really helps with doping.
Conversely, my Elite 4200 scopes are crystal clear with better resolution. Mirage does not show up as well even with AO is off focus.
Don't know if this is a coating issue or whatever but the Pentax will be on my LR target /hunting rifles when possible.
Test the consistency of your equipment - critical to your success. At 400 to 500yds, set up a target like a clay pigeon. Watch the conditions take a shot. Odds are there is a miss. Spot the impact and shoot again without moving the sights. Does it hit in the same spot? Repeat until you are confident that the bullets are landing in the same spot. Then adjust and see what happens.
If the POI covers a large area (many times larger then the intended target, hits all over the place), then you know that the rifle/load/shooter is not suitable for that distance/target. Be honest with yourself and change what needs to be to get you shooting consistently/accurately.
I imagine a disc the group size of my rifle when compensating for wind/conditions. I want the highest probability that a bullet falling into this area will engage the target. With small targets, the area of fire will be bigger then the target so there will always be a chance of missing no matter how well I dope.
If I expect the bullet to land on top of each other, I would get quickly demoralized because you just can't dope precise enough. The rifle will not let you. Understand the limits of your equipment AND the task you are presenting yourself.
To simplify, let's say your consistent group size at some long distance is 8 inches for 5 rds under ideal conditions. You are trying to hit a PD which offers you a 3"X8" target. Right away, I know that perfect shooting will only give a hit 50% of the time, maybe a bit less depending on how you do your math. That doesn't mean you accept missing 50% of the time but if your bullet lands within a few inches of the PD (within that 8" circle), you know that you have a 'hit'.
You just have to direct that area of fire over your target so that you increase the probability of a hit. With a bit of luck, you connect.
Why I laugh about PD shooting at extreme distances. It is a lot of fun, yes but call it intended shooting, no. When the target is less then 5% of the group size of a rifle, this falls into spray and pray. With enough bullets, anyone can hit anything at any range. That's not what LR hunting is about.
The target area and the accuracy of the rifle/shooter under the conditions presented must be such that a probability of a hit exceeds 95%. Otherwise, get closer, don't shoot.
So that 8" area of fire on a deer giving a kill zone 12X12 leads to a 100% probability of a hit. Now your skill to compensate for wind matters because you know the bullet will fall within an area suitable to take out the target if you can dope appropriately.
Get out there and burn lots of powder. Be very systematic and watch your variables. Don't get that barrel hot as this really throws a wrench in the works. Consistency and repeatability is what leads to accuracy.
When you know that, you are well on your way to being a great shot.
Jerry
PS Alot of LR hunters will use the spotting shot before engaging the game. Just gets rid of all those variables at LR.
Test at different ranges to ensure that the load continues to do what you predict. No use trying to compensate a few inches with a load/rifle that can't hold 1 ft at that distance. Watch changes to your load caused by temp.
Then there is the optics. Some scopes just let you see mirage better then others. I have a Pentax Lightseeker 30. Certainly not the best optics in the world but man can you see mirage. Target image is still very clear. Really helps with doping.
Conversely, my Elite 4200 scopes are crystal clear with better resolution. Mirage does not show up as well even with AO is off focus.
Don't know if this is a coating issue or whatever but the Pentax will be on my LR target /hunting rifles when possible.
Test the consistency of your equipment - critical to your success. At 400 to 500yds, set up a target like a clay pigeon. Watch the conditions take a shot. Odds are there is a miss. Spot the impact and shoot again without moving the sights. Does it hit in the same spot? Repeat until you are confident that the bullets are landing in the same spot. Then adjust and see what happens.
If the POI covers a large area (many times larger then the intended target, hits all over the place), then you know that the rifle/load/shooter is not suitable for that distance/target. Be honest with yourself and change what needs to be to get you shooting consistently/accurately.
I imagine a disc the group size of my rifle when compensating for wind/conditions. I want the highest probability that a bullet falling into this area will engage the target. With small targets, the area of fire will be bigger then the target so there will always be a chance of missing no matter how well I dope.
If I expect the bullet to land on top of each other, I would get quickly demoralized because you just can't dope precise enough. The rifle will not let you. Understand the limits of your equipment AND the task you are presenting yourself.
To simplify, let's say your consistent group size at some long distance is 8 inches for 5 rds under ideal conditions. You are trying to hit a PD which offers you a 3"X8" target. Right away, I know that perfect shooting will only give a hit 50% of the time, maybe a bit less depending on how you do your math. That doesn't mean you accept missing 50% of the time but if your bullet lands within a few inches of the PD (within that 8" circle), you know that you have a 'hit'.
You just have to direct that area of fire over your target so that you increase the probability of a hit. With a bit of luck, you connect.
Why I laugh about PD shooting at extreme distances. It is a lot of fun, yes but call it intended shooting, no. When the target is less then 5% of the group size of a rifle, this falls into spray and pray. With enough bullets, anyone can hit anything at any range. That's not what LR hunting is about.
The target area and the accuracy of the rifle/shooter under the conditions presented must be such that a probability of a hit exceeds 95%. Otherwise, get closer, don't shoot.
So that 8" area of fire on a deer giving a kill zone 12X12 leads to a 100% probability of a hit. Now your skill to compensate for wind matters because you know the bullet will fall within an area suitable to take out the target if you can dope appropriately.
Get out there and burn lots of powder. Be very systematic and watch your variables. Don't get that barrel hot as this really throws a wrench in the works. Consistency and repeatability is what leads to accuracy.
When you know that, you are well on your way to being a great shot.
Jerry
PS Alot of LR hunters will use the spotting shot before engaging the game. Just gets rid of all those variables at LR.
bailey1474
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
[ QUOTE ]
Why I laugh about PD shooting at extreme distances. It is a lot of fun, yes but call it intended shooting, no. When the target is less then 5% of the group size of a rifle, this falls into spray and pray. With enough bullets, anyone can hit anything at any range. That's not what LR hunting is about.
[/ QUOTE ]
Part of LRH is practice, and that is what shooting PDs @ extreme range is about. If your shooting @ such a small target @ extreme ranges it sure does make it easier to hit a target 5 times as big.
When shooting PDs @ exteme ranges, just b/c the PD runs in the hole, doesn't mean you missed. You have do your part everytime you lob a bullet out there to even have a chance of kill.
How many PDs have you killed past 700 yds?
Why I laugh about PD shooting at extreme distances. It is a lot of fun, yes but call it intended shooting, no. When the target is less then 5% of the group size of a rifle, this falls into spray and pray. With enough bullets, anyone can hit anything at any range. That's not what LR hunting is about.
[/ QUOTE ]
Part of LRH is practice, and that is what shooting PDs @ extreme range is about. If your shooting @ such a small target @ extreme ranges it sure does make it easier to hit a target 5 times as big.
When shooting PDs @ exteme ranges, just b/c the PD runs in the hole, doesn't mean you missed. You have do your part everytime you lob a bullet out there to even have a chance of kill.
How many PDs have you killed past 700 yds?
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Now I am not trying to hijack this post, I have found it very informative. I am a little taken back my Jerry's "laughing" at long range pdog shooting.
Now obviously high percentage hitting of pdogs at distances past 1000yds is not as common as with some other animals, but it is still very admirable.
I think long range dogging is great practice for people trying to hone their ability. The animal is very small but will set still, they tend to be dumb and stick around after a miss, and most people do not like them anyway.
When me and Bill Bailey shoot our pdogs past 1k I would definantly not call it spray and pray. We did not have real high hit percentage but it was the first 2 times we had ever tried it before and we were also shooting a completely factory rifle. We consistantly hit with a few inches of every dog and as a good man once told me you can learn as much from a close miss as you can from a hit.
I am not trying to jump you but I do take pride in some of the good shots I have made and I just wanted to defend them.
Here in a few weeks when I get my 270 Allen Mag rolling maybe I can improve on you 50% hit theory
Steve
Now obviously high percentage hitting of pdogs at distances past 1000yds is not as common as with some other animals, but it is still very admirable.
I think long range dogging is great practice for people trying to hone their ability. The animal is very small but will set still, they tend to be dumb and stick around after a miss, and most people do not like them anyway.
When me and Bill Bailey shoot our pdogs past 1k I would definantly not call it spray and pray. We did not have real high hit percentage but it was the first 2 times we had ever tried it before and we were also shooting a completely factory rifle. We consistantly hit with a few inches of every dog and as a good man once told me you can learn as much from a close miss as you can from a hit.
I am not trying to jump you but I do take pride in some of the good shots I have made and I just wanted to defend them.
Here in a few weeks when I get my 270 Allen Mag rolling maybe I can improve on you 50% hit theory
Steve
sscoyote
Well-Known Member
Are u running clicks for wind or are u referencing wind with the reticle-- ballistic or ranging? Although i still shoot pr. dogs some i never run clicks anymore for windage. The reason i do this is because i use pr. dog shooting for practice for hunting under field conditions, and i want a quick accurate reference for my wind call. I always pick my reticles such that i have a decent windage reference in them, i.e. i like to have a reticle with windage stadia that gives my 4-6 MOA (for hunting to 6-800 yds.) reference. Once i know the stadia subtensions, i simply divide the ballistic program windage calcs in MOA by each stadia's MOA value to reference windage in tenths of a "stadia unit". Then this info goes on my range sticker on my scope, so i can get a reasonable windage reference quickly in the field. I certainly don't have the experience many do on this forum, but this system has proven itself surprisingly very effective for me, and i am still quite taken aback when i make a 1st shot connection on a pr. dog in a 5-15 mph x-wind with my AR-15/Ballistic Plex reticle, and some of my single-shot handguns on coyotes at long-range.
Thanks guys, my rifle has the capability but I do not have the skill. It will group around two inches at 500 yards. Jerry I understand what you mean about understanding your rifles capabilities. For instance my rifle will shoot under a minute of angle at 1000(proven early in the mornings of a shoot), so when I miss a call I take that 8 or 9 inches into consideration. Not taking that into consideration was a mistake I used to make often when making corrections. I usually get an estimate on the wind, say its a varying 5 moa-7moa wind, then I will usually give it 4-5 moa and hold over for the rest. I've got a few books on the way now so I'll have some reading.
Mysticplayer
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Bill, where I live PD are protected if you can believe that so I have "never" shot at them. I have shot my share of clay pigeons at further ranges though. That's pretty close in size.
No, I don't think 700yds is LR either. In fact, with the rigs many of us shoot, 1000m is quite doable. I am talking 2000m and beyond.
At those ranges, groups are in the 2 to 3 ft variety in dead calm. Add some wind and you are looking at a 6 to 10ft circle. of course we can hit a pop can size target, but the mechanical ability limits us somewhat.
Was not meant to be a critism. I do alot of LR shooting and pushing the limits is what I enjoy. However, at some point, you got to just call it for what it is.
And dusting a PD at LR is a lot of fun, but it most certainly is still a miss.
arthurj, at LR, if you need to hold off that much for wind, my suggestion is don't shoot. At 700yds, a wind needing 5 min of adjustment means that you are compensating for about 3ft of drift. That is the length of the average deer behind the shoulder to the rump.
If you misjudge by a bit, you are way off your mark. In that kind of wind, I would get closer or at the very least use a spotter shot or two or ten.
Maybe more conservative then most but if the wind requires more then one mil dot of windage as I see it in my scope, I wait for another day. As I said earlier, I believe that the max range I will pull the trigger is under conditions and distance where I have a better then 95% chance of a direct hit.
Only your skill and ethics will determine your limits.
Jerry
No, I don't think 700yds is LR either. In fact, with the rigs many of us shoot, 1000m is quite doable. I am talking 2000m and beyond.
At those ranges, groups are in the 2 to 3 ft variety in dead calm. Add some wind and you are looking at a 6 to 10ft circle. of course we can hit a pop can size target, but the mechanical ability limits us somewhat.
Was not meant to be a critism. I do alot of LR shooting and pushing the limits is what I enjoy. However, at some point, you got to just call it for what it is.
And dusting a PD at LR is a lot of fun, but it most certainly is still a miss.
arthurj, at LR, if you need to hold off that much for wind, my suggestion is don't shoot. At 700yds, a wind needing 5 min of adjustment means that you are compensating for about 3ft of drift. That is the length of the average deer behind the shoulder to the rump.
If you misjudge by a bit, you are way off your mark. In that kind of wind, I would get closer or at the very least use a spotter shot or two or ten.
Maybe more conservative then most but if the wind requires more then one mil dot of windage as I see it in my scope, I wait for another day. As I said earlier, I believe that the max range I will pull the trigger is under conditions and distance where I have a better then 95% chance of a direct hit.
Only your skill and ethics will determine your limits.
Jerry
G
Guest
Guest
aurthurj,
Not true.... you have plenty of energy...all you need is the practice in wind.
at 750 yards
175 gr SMK at 2600 fps you have 823 ft. lbs of energy.
that is at 0 ft. ASL, 59* and 78% hum.
Not true.... you have plenty of energy...all you need is the practice in wind.
at 750 yards
175 gr SMK at 2600 fps you have 823 ft. lbs of energy.
that is at 0 ft. ASL, 59* and 78% hum.
Ok thanks Ric, I thought it lost it somewhere around 600-700 yards. I guess its just the limitations of a 308 but it seems to me after 600-700 yards it is a whole different ball game with the wind. I can hold a 90% hit ratio on a 3" target at 500, then at 600 I can hit a 1moa target 70-80% of the time, 700 I can hold a 1moa 50-60%. It seems after 700 things get REALLY tough with some wind.
Mysticplayer
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As Ric pointed out, the 308 is quite lethal at 750yds on deer. Certainly many on this board who have already proven that fact. The big issue is wind drift. The 308 is not much of a wind bucker.
I switched over to the 6.5 270 and 7mm because of the winds I face in my hunting areas. These high BC bullets just work better at distance. I also own 30 and 338 cannons for very long distances.
With most cartridges we shoot, there is little shortage of power to cleanly take game. The problem is getting the bullet into the right place under hunting conditions.
The right combo of rifle, cartridge, support optics and shooter can accomplish some pretty amazing things. LRH is an investment in all these areas. Get the best you can afford, practise, practise, practise, and make sure when you pull that trigger, you will need to also deal with gutting and packing.
Good luck with your adventure...
Jerry
I switched over to the 6.5 270 and 7mm because of the winds I face in my hunting areas. These high BC bullets just work better at distance. I also own 30 and 338 cannons for very long distances.
With most cartridges we shoot, there is little shortage of power to cleanly take game. The problem is getting the bullet into the right place under hunting conditions.
The right combo of rifle, cartridge, support optics and shooter can accomplish some pretty amazing things. LRH is an investment in all these areas. Get the best you can afford, practise, practise, practise, and make sure when you pull that trigger, you will need to also deal with gutting and packing.
Good luck with your adventure...
Jerry
bailey1474
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Currently we are dialing in the windage. My .243 has a target dot so I don't have much choice. I have 8.5-25 Leupy w/ a TMR on my 270 AM and hope to use the .5 and 1 mil marks for widage w/this rifle. Gonna have to get out and practice to get proficient @ this though.
I agree w/Jerry on the 95% chance of a clean hit. Being able to kill @ these ranges is a huge advantage, if it is not abused. You don't want to wound 2 or 3 deer for everyone you kill.
Practice=confidence. The more you do it, the more you will extend your personal limits.
I agree w/Jerry on the 95% chance of a clean hit. Being able to kill @ these ranges is a huge advantage, if it is not abused. You don't want to wound 2 or 3 deer for everyone you kill.
Practice=confidence. The more you do it, the more you will extend your personal limits.
sscoyote
Well-Known Member
Yeah, ditto on Jerry's posting too. I think it's right on.
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Yeah, what all the other guys said too, but I will add that I look for three things mainly and in this order:
First, Mirage.
I scan each section from me to the target and let the accumulative knowledge I have gathered over the years make my decision for the gun I have in my hands at the time. The only way to get experience in this technique is to shoot in ALL conditions A LOT.
Second, I look at shrubbery and vegetation in sections from me to the target but specifically paying close attention to the foilage closest to me as that is the most critical wind to the flight path of the bullet.
Third, follow through with your shot. Make a mental effort to see which way the wind blows your dust and how fast it goes away from the impact. Also, if you have time, look at the mirage while the bullet vapor trail is in the air and try to memorize temporarily what happened to the bullet in mid-flight and where it drifted the most and compare it to the mirage image.
Hope this helps.
First, Mirage.
I scan each section from me to the target and let the accumulative knowledge I have gathered over the years make my decision for the gun I have in my hands at the time. The only way to get experience in this technique is to shoot in ALL conditions A LOT.
Second, I look at shrubbery and vegetation in sections from me to the target but specifically paying close attention to the foilage closest to me as that is the most critical wind to the flight path of the bullet.
Third, follow through with your shot. Make a mental effort to see which way the wind blows your dust and how fast it goes away from the impact. Also, if you have time, look at the mirage while the bullet vapor trail is in the air and try to memorize temporarily what happened to the bullet in mid-flight and where it drifted the most and compare it to the mirage image.
Hope this helps.
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