Help me interpret load data - First post

[BoomFlop]

Personally I would be testing the 68 grain load. You have a full 1 grain wide node. That wide note should help with temp swings and still keep you in the node and reduce POI changes.

I would load 67.8-68.7 in .2 increments and see what you get for velocity and groups.

Steve

 

[waveslayer]

Could you post pics of the targets so we can see POA and POI for all the charges like @BoomFlop mentioned?

 

[jtvann]

Personally I would be testing the 68 grain load. You have a full 1 grain wide node. That wide note should help with temp swings and still keep you in the node and reduce POI changes.

I would load 67.8-68.7 in .2 increments and see what you get for velocity and groups.

Steve

My question originally was that I see that it's a nice huge node when it's 55 degrees out, but at a temp sensitivity of 2 feet per degree, when it's 40 degrees cooler or 40 degrees warmer, and it's shooting 80 fps slower or faster, is that still a node?

I'm taking away that it is not and that I need to learn what my load does at various temps and dial the charge up or down accordingly to keep me in the node.

If I'm reading it right then I should try to keep my velocity between 3065-3075.

I need to go out and shoot more and see what charge weight keeps me in that range with varying temps.

 

[PddPdd]

Another general bit of advice that I and others have experienced is that higher velocity nodes tend to shoot better groups than slower velocity nodes. This is why I may choose a higher velocity node over a lower velocity node even though the ES and node width is similar.

 

[Mike Matteson]

To start with I never used Ramshot Hunter Powder. Here what I have ran into over the years. I develop some load with IMR-4350 & 4831 powder in the late winter in Mexico-North, (AKA Calif) Temp was about 50 to 60 during those days. Develop 3400fps with 165gr bullets. Changed over to a different rifle and loads. When back in summer. Temp was 90 to 100+ at that time. Pickup up the first rifle to shoot. Blew the primer out of the case first round out of a cold barrel. Need to say that ended the shooting for that rifle that day. 49 round to unload. Figure out IMR powder don't like temper change. I switch to H 4350 and H 4831 powder. Now I didn't quite achieve the same velocity with the H powders. I end up @ 3300fps. I hunt in weather from -20 to 110+ temp. I never tested that load to see what change was with where it hit in different temps. I never had a problem in shooting out to 500yds with the H powders in any type of weather or elevations. It probable does, but I didn't note it. I gave away about 16lbs of IMR powder, and never looked back. What I am saying is be careful and test your load in different temps. The other is lots of my loads are about 5grs over what the loading manual calls out for max loads. I look at accuracies and velocity.

 

[BoomFlop]

My question originally was that I see that it's a nice huge node when it's 55 degrees out, but at a temp sensitivity of 2 feet per degree, when it's 40 degrees cooler or 40 degrees warmer, and it's shooting 80 fps slower or faster, is that still a node?

I'm taking away that it is not and that I need to learn what my load does at various temps and dial the charge up or down accordingly to keep me in the node.

If I'm reading it right then I should try to keep my velocity between 3065-3075.

I need to go out and shoot more and see what charge weight keeps me in that range with varying temps.

Without any group data it is all speculation at this point. Besides, it would be very difficult/nearly impossible to have a good load for long range that will shoot good from 15-95 degrees as you used as an example.

Put a couple charges that you want to on paper at distance and see what it does vertically. Then play with seating depth in whichever one you think has the most potential. Personally, I do seating first at the lowest charge weight.

Good luck,
Steve

 

[RUFFIAN R - NY]

perfection 100% each and every time NOT going to happen !!!! Too many items to consider . Brass virgin / OFB / 3X . Powder & charge . Primers / Bullet weight - OG Etc. Are you benchrest shooting / Hunting / plinking / f-class etc etc will all determine where and when to stop going crazy !!!! and enjoy your sport - for most of us the gun shoots better than we can !!! If looking for 100 % shot in a vacuum tube . Either way shoot straight & often, enjoy your time in the field after all its about having F U N !!! Right.

 

[Window]

Personally I would be testing the 68 grain load. You have a full 1 grain wide node. That wide note should help with temp swings and still keep you in the node and reduce POI changes.

I would load 67.8-68.7 in .2 increments and see what you get for velocity and groups.

Steve

Thankfully I was reading through all the post before responding. You took the words right out of my mouth Steve.

 

[Veteran]

If you want more consistent velocities as charge weight is varied, you will have to go with a
Hodgdon Extreme, an Enduron IMR,
or one of the powders Alliant and Vihtavuori advertise as temp insensitive. The Ramshot powders are ball powders and therefore the most temperature sensitive vs. extruded stick powders and the ones above chemically altered to be less temp. sensitive.

Temperature swings greatly affect burn rate, so much so it can be like a whole different powder at times, especially w ball powders.

So, either run your velocity nodes at close to actual hunting weather temps and load for that temp, or go to an extreme powder to do the load development. Pretty much what everyone is saying I think.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

just wanna point out what added data can do to a trend line of only one charge, if you look at all of your data separately , it can be deceiving , and appear promising , until you stack the data all on same graph

look at this graph as a comparison between you intial velocity with one shot , but with another series stacked with it side by side

i think you could see some actual nodes if you did your first test the same exact way , three time2 ( 2 more ) , in attempts to get a trend line for each day and temp , when three lines get tight

fwiw , I filled all the voids between . your half gr increments (split weights) to match that of your first test weights

65​		2775​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.4​		2800​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.5​		2828​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.6​		2844​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.8​		2860​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66​		2877​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.4​		2888​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.5​		2899​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.6​		2905​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.8​		2911​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67​		2919​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67.4​		2950​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67.5​		2980​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.6​		2979​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67.8​		2979​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68​		2978​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.4​		2984​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.5​		2987​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.6​		2990​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.8​		2993​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69​		2996​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.4​		3014​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.5​		3029​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.6​		3022​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.8​		3044​	3011​	3020​	3024​
70​		3065​	3011​	3020​	3024​
70.4​		3063​	3009​	3014​	3011​
70.5​		3062​	3011​	3020​	3024​
70.6​		3067​	3011​	3023​	3032​
70.8​		3072​	3004​	3020​	3024​
71​		3077​	3011​	3020​	3024​
7.14​		3090​	3011​	3020​	3024​
71.5​		3105​	3011​	3020​	3024​
71.6​		3110​	3011​	3020​	3024​
71.8​		3115​	3011​	3020​	3024​
72​		3120​	3011​	3020​	3024​
72.4​		3143​	3011​	3020​	3024​
72.5​		3167​	3011​	3020​	3024​

 

[jtvann]

just wanna point out what added data can do to a trend line of only one charge, if you look at all of your data separately , it can be deceiving , and appear promising , until you stack the data all on same graph

look at this graph as a comparison between you intial velocity with one shot , but with another series stacked with it side by side

i think you could see some actual nodes if you did your first test the same exact way , three time2 ( 2 more ) , in attempts to get a trend line for each day and temp , when three lines get tight



View attachment 342961

fwiw , I filled all the voids between . your half gr increments (split weights) to match that of your first test weights

65​		2775​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.4​		2800​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.5​		2828​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.6​		2844​	3011​	3020​	3024​
65.8​		2860​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66​		2877​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.4​		2888​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.5​		2899​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.6​		2905​	3011​	3020​	3024​
66.8​		2911​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67​		2919​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67.4​		2950​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67.5​		2980​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.6​		2979​	3011​	3020​	3024​
67.8​		2979​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68​		2978​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.4​		2984​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.5​		2987​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.6​		2990​	3011​	3020​	3024​
68.8​		2993​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69​		2996​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.4​		3014​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.5​		3029​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.6​		3022​	3011​	3020​	3024​
69.8​		3044​	3011​	3020​	3024​
70​		3065​	3011​	3020​	3024​
70.4​		3063​	3009​	3014​	3011​
70.5​		3062​	3011​	3020​	3024​
70.6​		3067​	3011​	3023​	3032​
70.8​		3072​	3004​	3020​	3024​
71​		3077​	3011​	3020​	3024​
7.14​		3090​	3011​	3020​	3024​
71.5​		3105​	3011​	3020​	3024​
71.6​		3110​	3011​	3020​	3024​
71.8​		3115​	3011​	3020​	3024​
72​		3120​	3011​	3020​	3024​
72.4​		3143​	3011​	3020​	3024​
72.5​		3167​	3011​	3020​	3024​

I've got a lot of shooting ahead of me to work this load up. Went out today to test a few loads that were in the node a few days ago, that now have an extreme spread of 50 fps across 4 rounds.

Some time you just gotta go home and quit shooting. I'm thinking now that I probably ought to just shoot this new brass to get it once fired before I even try to take notes on anything.

 

[Veteran]

Yep, need to do load dev. w fire formed brass...this is true.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

the graph above was just to illustrate how one shot can be misleading , maybe expand your 20 shots , to 60 to get three trend lines

does that ramshot hunter get to a point in your data that it can be compressed or a 100 % capacity , was your 72.5 charge full or have any pressure ??? if the spherical powder has chance i think it will be right at full ( if in safe data range ) .... no changing voids in case while shooting

if you have or can find a better powder option , you can always use the ramshot to swell up your brass and keep testing in the high end

 

[pony doctor]

I think you picked a portion of the "right" velocity node to investigate further (69.8 - 70.2) but I probably would have extended it to include loads up to 71.2 grains. In your original data your extreme spread (ES) between 70.0 -71.0 is only 15 fps.

From the second set of loads you shot your ES was lowest (4 fps) for 70.0 & 70.4 grains so you could go with 3 shot groups for accuracy in that range or add in the loads up to 71.2 so your aren't leaving anything on the table.

In general, I try to shoot all my loads that I'm comparing to each other, in the same sitting, so I don't have to worry so much about temperature driven velocity changes (especially since the key data from these tests are velocity).

To answer your question, if you pick the best (smallest ES and widest charge weight) you won't need to load temperature dependent rounds. This assumes you are using a less temperature sensitive powders such as the Hodgden extreme line.

Hope that helps.

My 2 cents:
Velocity does not kill anything!
I put my range ammo in s cooler on ice as generally, hunting fall and winter but this does seem to relieve me of temp variable! Works wonders on those hot summer days!
Go with your best grouping looking for horizontal patterns vs vertical patterns. You might see if it is possible to dremel the magazine so that you can explore seating bullets to within 15 thousandths off the lands and work out the best grouping based on proximity to the lands.