Heavy for caliber vs. high velocity monos

[SammySTW]

EP 44: The Best Bullet For The Job - Terminal Ballistics And Debunking Myths In The Great Bullet And Caliber Debate

Listen to this episode from Long Range Pursuit on Spotify. Bullet and caliber debates have been a hot topic for as long as humans have been pushing hot lead down the bore of a rifle. Landon Michaels and Mitch Libby discuss terminal ballistics and best bullet choice for individual applications...

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[esshup]

FWIW, I shot a Wisconsin Whitetail buck at 21 yds with an 85g Barnes TSX bullet from my .243 with a MV of 3250 fps. Bullet entered the top of the neck where it meets the body (from a tree stand, buck was facing me with it's head somewhat down). I thought I'd finally get to find a Barnes. Nope. I wondered what the blood was on the buck's scrotum. Exit hole........ No, it didn't move after being shot except straight down. Yes, the insides were a mess.

 

[archp625]

I ordered some 124 HH for my PRC last week. I haven't got them yet but cannot wait. What are you guys seeing as far as barrel wear on this light for caliber super fast speed HH's?

 

[esshup]

I ordered some 124 HH for my PRC last week. I haven't got them yet but cannot wait. What are you guys seeing as far as barrel wear on this light for caliber super fast speed HH's?

I believe if you don't get the barrel too hot to hold for 10 sec right in front of the scope, you wont' see any more wear than a normal bullet.

 

[archp625]

I believe if you don't get the barrel too hot to hold for 10 sec right in front of the scope, you wont' see any more wear than a normal bullet.

Thank you for the reply. I plan on shooting 147's for practice then clean the barrel and switch to the load I find with the hammers. I shoot too much to exclusively shoot hammers. But for hunting I am fine with Hammers prices.

 

[esshup]

I was told to expect the barrel life in one gun to be around 1,500 rounds. The gunsmith said it would be way less than 1,000 if I let the barrel get hot and kept shooting. I knew that, but I asked for verification on what was "hot". He said if I couldn't comfortably rest my hand on the barrel as close to the chamber as I could get, the barrel was too hot. When I asked for how long, his reply was that if you have to take your hand off of the barrel because your hand is getting too hot, then the barrel is too hot.

 

[scdogman]

I agree that speed makes a big difference, and in the case of the hammer bullets You don't have to decide between penetration and expansion. The only trade off is If you are making shots over 600 yards or so, where the BC really shows.

My 22" 300 Norma has taken 6 elk in the past 2 years with 181 hammers hunters at 3040 fps. None went more that 30 yards. I have been playing with 178 absolute hammers recently and can get another 200 fps. Win win as far as I'm concerned.

I had a Berger, shot pretty fast from a 7stw, blow up on a shoulder once and make a mess, while not penetrating to the vitals. Don't want to repeat that, ever!

In looking at the numbers, the 181 is faster at 500 yards than the 178 even with the starting at 200 fps faster. Inside 500 yards does the extra fps make a difference?

 

[CMP70306]

I ordered some 124 HH for my PRC last week. I haven't got them yet but cannot wait. What are you guys seeing as far as barrel wear on this light for caliber super fast speed HH's?

I was able to get 1100 rounds out of my Proof Prefit in 6.5 PRC shooting a combination of heavy 153.5gr Berger's around 2900 fps and the 122 to 124gr monos from 3200 to 3400. I did not baby this rifle and got the barrel quite hot on more than a few occasions while testing the 123gr AH.

 

[dug]

I live in new yorkastain , so my hunt ranges here are 500 yrds max most are 300-450 yrds on my property.
so my loads and bullet selection for here in ny are light for cal lead core bullets . As the extra wind dope isnt a factor as time of flight defeats it . I some times dont have time to laser rangefind the animal if its moving across my field of fire so flatter is better for me as i guessamate the range with trees and rocks that are out there. I hunt from the same stand all the time.
i also go west hunting every yr as i own a camp in WY. I have a one mile range there to shoot on ,and my hunting ranges there can be at what ever number of yrds i feel comfortable with the wind at time of the shot .
i use heavy for cal hi BC bullets lead core for all of that shooting and hunting.
i set up my rifle ,ammo ,and dope sheet ,and then do a bullet test to see at what speed the bullet stops expanding. For a berger vldh its around 1600-1650 fps. So i stop hunting at what range my bullet has slowed to 1750 fps. That gives my a 100 fps cushion of confidence that my bullet will expand inside the animal.
this is the most important factor for ME .
energy is a useless number ! Most any impact passed 500-600 yrds The bullet passes through the animal = the energy left was expended in the dirt behind animal ?!
the more the bullet expands the less it penetrates and more energy is spent inside the animal. (Speed kills quicker)
ive killed a pile of animals passed 600 and the wound channels just arnt big bloody holes with shocked up flesh that looks like hamburg, like they are at closer ranges and faster impacts.
last yrs muley at 750 yrds shot with a 130 gr eldm broad side shot double lung deer jumped, ran 20 yrs fell dwn and struggle to get up for couple mins before dying. Not the quickest kill but dead never the less. The wound channel through the lungs was a 2" bloody hole with an exit hole. If that same shot was a 300-400 yrd hit the lungs would have been a mess and likely take less time to die.
When shooting living critters i want the best bullet ,fps combo to raise my hit percentage in the wind and the most expansion of the bullet At impact.
mono bullets i have played with just havent satisfied my accuracy demands so lead core it is for me ,lite or heavy .
i have not tried the hammers ,so one day maybe but im 56 yrs old now and lead core is still a happy place for me

 

[Goldengun]

Gunwerks has a great podcast on terminal performance, I dont recall the episode # but u can find it. They basically explain that impact velocity is more important than impact energy. The impact velocity is what causes bullet expansion, which let's the bullet do it's job and create a wound channel. Of course shot placement also affects the bullet expansion. But think about it this way, you can probably shoot a 408 or 50 cal at 900 fps, it's probably still got a lot of energy, but it's not going to get any expansion, and won't be as effective as a 25 cal going 2000 fps

50 cals dont need to expand the way smaller projectiles do to be effective though, right? A 50 cal ML can blow through a deer, right? a 25 cal hitting the shoulder may never reach the vitals, right? Speed alone never killed anything, right? Everything else being equal, extra speed can be beneficial, but i also think it might be a hindrance based on type of bullet and bullet placement. Speed has its advantages for sure, but so does BC, weight, and type of bullet.

 

[FEENIX]

Gunwerks has a great podcast on terminal performance, I dont recall the episode # but u can find it. They basically explain that impact velocity is more important than impact energy. The impact velocity is what causes bullet expansion, which let's the bullet do it's job and create a wound channel. Of course shot placement also affects the bullet expansion.

It is a matter of personal perspective on how one synthesizes the information being presented. As I noted in #87, I factor them together - minimum velocity of the bullet to expand effectively + minimum energy (goal or as set for the game) at point of impact.

But think about it this way, you can probably shoot a 408 or 50 cal at 900 fps, it's probably still got a lot of energy, but it's not going to get any expansion, and won't be as effective as a 25 cal going 2000 fps

That is not a good side-by-side comparison. A .50 BMG pushing the .750 A-Max at 2950 FPS MV has an impact velocity of 1119 FPS and 2085 FT-LBS at 2500Y.

(SOURCE: https://riflebarrels.com/barrel-lengths-velocities-for-the-50-bmg/).

I am not sure what you consider effective, but the impact energy of the 50 BMG at 2000 FPS is no comparison to a .25 cal at 2000 FPS. I am not looking for a debate but simply presenting a fact. Cheers!

 

[SammySTW]

50 cals dont need to expand the way smaller projectiles do to be effective though, right? A 50 cal ML can blow through a deer, right? a 25 cal hitting the shoulder may never reach the vitals, right? Speed alone never killed anything, right? Everything else being equal, extra speed can be beneficial, but i also think it might be a hindrance based on type of bullet and bullet placement. Speed has its advantages for sure, but so does BC, weight, and type of bullet.

Right, I was just using extreme examples to make the point clearer. I was not saying that caliber size and bullet weight are not important, because they are, they just need to be appropriate for the type of game. And I'm talking about similar bullet types in each caliber. If you're talking about a 50 cal muzzle loader, or pistol bullet, that bullet is probably designed to expand and create a larger wound channel at slow velocity.

Some real life numbers:
A 22 cal 55 gr bullet has about 1535 ft-lbs energy at 3540 fps.
A 7mm 180 gr has about 1535 ft-lbs energy at 1960 fps.
A 338 cal 300 gr has about 1535 ft-lbs energy at 1520 fps.
A 50 cal 750 gr Amax has 1535 ft-lbs energy at 960 fps. Yes a well placed shot will kill most animals with that, but if you miss the vitals by an inch, good luck.
The 7mm and 338 are both good calibers for game such as elk, but so many people say that you want "x" amount of energy to kill. But both at 1500 ft-lbs energy, the 7mm bullet will perform and kill better than the heavier 338, simply because it has enough velocity for the bullet to do its job, I don't care if it's a 180 Berger or a 177 Hammer

 

[SammySTW]

X

It is a matter of personal perspective on how one synthesizes the information being presented. As I noted in #87, I factor them together - minimum velocity of the bullet to expand effectively + minimum energy (goal or as set for the game) at point of impact.

That is not a good side-by-side comparison. A .50 BMG pushing the .750 A-Max at 2950 FPS MV has an impact velocity of 1119 FPS and 2085 FT-LBS at 2500Y (SOURCE: https://riflebarrels.com/barrel-lengths-velocities-for-the-50-bmg/). I am not sure what you consider effective, but the impact energy of the 50 BMG at 2000 FPS is no comparison to a .25 cal at 2000 FPS. I am not looking for a debate but simply presenting a fact. Cheers!

I was just comparing a 50 cal at 900 fps to a 25 cal at 2000 fps. If both are at 2000 fps, you're absolutely right, there is no comparison

 

[Goldengun]

Right, I was just using extreme examples to make the point clearer. I was not saying that caliber size and bullet weight are not important, because they are, they just need to be appropriate for the type of game. And I'm talking about similar bullet types in each caliber. If you're talking about a 50 cal muzzle loader, or pistol bullet, that bullet is probably designed to expand and create a larger wound channel at slow velocity.

Some real life numbers:
A 22 cal 55 gr bullet has about 1535 ft-lbs energy at 3540 fps.
A 7mm 180 gr has about 1535 ft-lbs energy at 1960 fps.
A 338 cal 300 gr has about 1535 ft-lbs energy at 1520 fps.
A 50 cal 750 gr Amax has 1535 ft-lbs energy at 960 fps. Yes a well placed shot will kill most animals with that, but if you miss the vitals by an inch, good luck.
The 7mm and 338 are both good calibers for game such as elk, but so many people say that you want "x" amount of energy to kill. But both at 1500 ft-lbs energy, the 7mm bullet will perform and kill better than the heavier 338, simply because it has enough velocity for the bullet to do its job, I don't care if it's a 180 Berger or a 177 Hammer

I dont know if i agree with that. What am I missing? The 338 would have a greater effective range even if muzzle velocity for the 338 is slower. If both calibers were shoot at same velocity the difference is tremendous. Wouldn't your example mean the 22 cal would kill better than the 7mm and the 338? I understand velocities value, but somethings not right. Is this apples to apples? Or only relative to monos and velocity vs other? Or are you saying the 180 would kill better at the range where the 7mm reaches 1535lbs compared to the range where the 338 reaches 1535lbs. Trying to learn something here.