Heavy for caliber vs. high velocity monos

[codyadams]

Your on the right track, there is no app that will figure velocity impact that I know of, there is a small group that has worked extensively on this with Hammer Bullets and the results are undeniable Speed Kills

I think I'm misunderstanding, but I believe nearly all apps tell you the velocity at impact at a given distance?

But you are absolutely correct, the faster the bullet is moving, the better they seem to kill, as long as it is within the threshold that the bullet can withstand and still perform as it should. I think of it as linier, the slower the bullet, the less dramatic the affect on the animal. A bullet near it's minimum velocity for adequate terminal performance will still work with proper shot placement, but it seems more likely that an elk double lung hit with say, a Hammer bullet at 1775 fps would likely run a little bit, maybe 50 yards, then succumb, where as an elk hit with that same bullet at 3100 fps would have a higher liklihood of a bang-flop, even without a cns hit. I have shot several elk at under 200 yards, and almost all of them hit the dirt like a bolt of lightning, and none of them were spine hits. A .308 w/168 on a few, and a 30-06 w/165 on a few. On the same token, I have taken several elk at over 700 yards, with a .260 AI and a .338 Norma Mag, and the only one that bang-floped was one that was hit at the neck/shoulder junction on the base of the neck vertebrae. None of them I shot traveled over 50 yards, but there was still an obvious difference. That is one of the reasons I want a brake on my guns, so I can spot my hit and track the animal in my scope, and also why I prefer to video my shot, so I can try to get a good idea where the animal moves to after the hit, if they move. Good insurance in my mind.

 

[Goldengun]

I think I'm misunderstanding, but I believe nearly all apps tell you the velocity at impact at a given distance?

But you are absolutely correct, the faster the bullet is moving, the better they seem to kill, as long as it is within the threshold that the bullet can withstand and still perform as it should. I think of it as linier, the slower the bullet, the less dramatic the affect on the animal. A bullet near it's minimum velocity for adequate terminal performance will still work with proper shot placement, but it seems more likely that an elk double lung hit with say, a Hammer bullet at 1775 fps would likely run a little bit, maybe 50 yards, then succumb, where as an elk hit with that same bullet at 3100 fps would have a higher liklihood of a bang-flop, even without a cns hit. I have shot several elk at under 200 yards, and almost all of them hit the dirt like a bolt of lightning, and none of them were spine hits. A .308 w/168 on a few, and a 30-06 w/165 on a few. On the same token, I have taken several elk at over 700 yards, with a .260 AI and a .338 Norma Mag, and the only one that bang-floped was one that was hit at the neck/shoulder junction on the base of the neck vertebrae. None of them I shot traveled over 50 yards, but there was still an obvious difference. That is one of the reasons I want a brake on my guns, so I can spot my hit and track the animal in my scope, and also why I prefer to video my shot, so I can try to get a good idea where the animal moves to after the hit, if they move. Good insurance in my mind.

What's your 260AI medicine?

 

[FEENIX]

So what I really want to know is if there is a certain fps you have to impact at to get a better terminal shock or is it generally the same once regardless of speed once you reach a certain point?

"My" unwritten rule is 1000 FT-LBS for deer and 1500 FT-LBS for elk and minimum recommended velocity (i.e., 1800 FPS) for the bullet to expand effectively at the point of impact. For the example below, it will be ~950Y for both elk and deer, even though there's plenty of energy for deer. The minimum threshold velocity of 1800 FPS for the bullet is the overriding factor, but that's just me.

 

[ButterBean]

I think I'm misunderstanding, but I believe nearly all apps tell you the velocity at impact at a given distance?

But you are absolutely correct, the faster the bullet is moving, the better they seem to kill, as long as it is within the threshold that the bullet can withstand and still perform as it should. I think of it as linier, the slower the bullet, the less dramatic the affect on the animal. A bullet near it's minimum velocity for adequate terminal performance will still work with proper shot placement, but it seems more likely that an elk double lung hit with say, a Hammer bullet at 1775 fps would likely run a little bit, maybe 50 yards, then succumb, where as an elk hit with that same bullet at 3100 fps would have a higher liklihood of a bang-flop, even without a cns hit. I have shot several elk at under 200 yards, and almost all of them hit the dirt like a bolt of lightning, and none of them were spine hits. A .308 w/168 on a few, and a 30-06 w/165 on a few. On the same token, I have taken several elk at over 700 yards, with a .260 AI and a .338 Norma Mag, and the only one that bang-floped was one that was hit at the neck/shoulder junction on the base of the neck vertebrae. None of them I shot traveled over 50 yards, but there was still an obvious difference. That is one of the reasons I want a brake on my guns, so I can spot my hit and track the animal in my scope, and also why I prefer to video my shot, so I can try to get a good idea where the animal moves to after the hit, if they move. Good insurance in my mind.

I should have worded it different, My bad, they show the numbers but I don't think folks get it, Here is my example, This is my 500 yard gong, the 4 splashes are 178 ELDX's out of my 308 1952fps@ 1506# of energy per the app The bullet buried in the plate are 90g Hammers out of my 25-06AI 2146fps@ 920# of energy per the app, this is why I personally don't put much faith in "The App"

 

[FEENIX]

I should have worded it different, My bad, they show the numbers but I don't think folks get it, Here is my example, This is my 500 yard gong, the 4 splashes are 178 ELDX's out of my 308 1952fps@ 1506# of energy per the app The bullet buried in the plate are 90g Hammers out of my 25-06AI 2146fps@ 920# of energy per the app, this is why I personally don't put much faith in "The App"

View attachment 253729

Meh ... average!

 

[ButterBean]

Meh ... average!

 

[esshup]

Thanks Cody!

Going from memory, with a 300 yd zero, the 175g SMK had a 13.75 moa adjustment to get to 1,000 yds. with my setup. I haven't shot the 195g enough to have it memorized yet.

 

[dougduey]

I did all that prior and the answer was they all had a max terminal range within 50 yards of each other past 700 yards so all three would work for my application.

My question was more in regards to the terminal performance on game with higher velocity impacts. For years I hunted with a .30-06 shooting 150gr bullets around 3000 fps, the past two years I've switched to my 6.5 PRC shooting the 123gr bullets at 3200 to 3400 fps and of the 4 animals I've shot I can't say I noticed any difference in their reactions.

So what I really want to know is if there is a certain fps you have to impact at to get a better terminal shock or is it generally the same once regardless of speed once you reach a certain point?

There is a lot at play here, so to answer your question, it all depends upon the bullet you're using and the animal you're using it on. If you really want to dive into terminal performance on game, look up Nathan Foster. He has a website (ballisticstudies.com) that goes into this quite a bit, but he has written a book that dives really deep into it. He's a kiwi and shoots tons of feral hogs and goats out his back door at various distances with multiple bullets in a variety of cartridges. He has tons of data. I've learned a ton. He goes into lowest velocity a certain bullet works best and also it's absolute limit. You'll find info like an ELDX works great in one caliber, but not as well in another (which is mostly due to difference in jacket thickness and size of the hollow point).
The closest thing I've found to an all around perfect bullet (from my own experience) is the Hammer Bullets.

 

[cmor]

I agree that speed makes a big difference, and in the case of the hammer bullets You don't have to decide between penetration and expansion. The only trade off is If you are making shots over 600 yards or so, where the BC really shows.

My 22" 300 Norma has taken 6 elk in the past 2 years with 181 hammers hunters at 3040 fps. None went more that 30 yards. I have been playing with 178 absolute hammers recently and can get another 200 fps. Win win as far as I'm concerned.

I had a Berger, shot pretty fast from a 7stw, blow up on a shoulder once and make a mess, while not penetrating to the vitals. Don't want to repeat that, ever!

 

[CMP70306]

Over the past few years I've shot 7 deer using a few different bullets and cartridges with the majority of those impacts being within 70 yards and the results were as follows based on impact location.

Two bucks shot with a head on sternum shot, 145gr Lehigh CC at 3045 and 124gr Hammer Hunter at 3200 fps, both died instantly with no noticeable difference in performance.

3 Deer shot in the lungs with the 145gr Lehigh CC at 3045, 123gr Hammer Hunter at 3400 fps, and 143gr ELD-X at 2645. All deer ran between 20 to 50 yards before dropping. The Hammer has the lightest blood trail and the longest run but by far the most internal damage. Compared to the 143gr which hit at 150 yards it provided a large blood trail and only ran 20 yards with much less internal damage than the Hammer.

2 Deer shot behind the shoulder but the bullet exited through the offside shoulder, 123gr Hammer Hunter at 3400 fps, and 143gr ELD-X at 2645. Both dropped and died shortly after with the offside shoulder being a total loss.

So based on my personal experience there seemed to be little real world difference between the bullets even with an 800 fps spread in impact velocities and near identical shot placement. I know ButterBean is running his 90gr at 3900 fps so I was curious if a faster velocity impact would provide more shock and more bang flop kills?

 

[codyadams]

I should have worded it different, My bad, they show the numbers but I don't think folks get it, Here is my example, This is my 500 yard gong, the 4 splashes are 178 ELDX's out of my 308 1952fps@ 1506# of energy per the app The bullet buried in the plate are 90g Hammers out of my 25-06AI 2146fps@ 920# of energy per the app, this is why I personally don't put much faith in "The App"

View attachment 253729

I see what your saying!

In my experience with mild steel (not ar500) speed seems to be about the only factor that leaves splashes like that. We have a couple plates of mild steel, and regularly shoot it with handguns and low velocity rifles, including my dad's 20" 44 mag rifle with 290 grain cast bullets, at impact at 50 yards, which we shoot often, it's around 1400 ft-lbs, but only going around 1500 fps at impact, and it leaves no dents whatsoever. However, when the same steel was hit with a 55 grain v-max from my ar-15 going 2475 fps with only 740 ft-lbs, it nearly penetrated through the steel and left a massive crater. So I'm not surprised at all that the bullets going 200 fps faster, reguardless of energy, left a larger crater. It also seems the threshold for a lot of the mild steels seems to be around 2000 + - fps for it to go from no or very small crater to significant divits or craters.

 

[ButterBean]

I see what your saying!

In my experience with mild steel (not ar500) speed seems to be about the only factor that leaves splashes like that. We have a couple plates of mild steel, and regularly shoot it with handguns and low velocity rifles, including my dad's 20" 44 mag rifle with 290 grain cast bullets, at impact at 50 yards, which we shoot often, it's around 1400 ft-lbs, but only going around 1500 fps at impact, and it leaves no dents whatsoever. However, when the same steel was hit with a 55 grain v-max from my ar-15 going 2475 fps with only 740 ft-lbs, it nearly penetrated through the steel and left a massive crater. So I'm not surprised at all that the bullets going 200 fps faster, reguardless of energy, left a larger crater. It also seems the threshold for a lot of the mild steels seems to be around 2000 + - fps for it to go from no or very small crater to significant divits or craters.

Speed Kills

 

[SammySTW]

Gunwerks has a great podcast on terminal performance, I dont recall the episode # but u can find it. They basically explain that impact velocity is more important than impact energy. The impact velocity is what causes bullet expansion, which let's the bullet do it's job and create a wound channel. Of course shot placement also affects the bullet expansion. But think about it this way, you can probably shoot a 408 or 50 cal at 900 fps, it's probably still got a lot of energy, but it's not going to get any expansion, and won't be as effective as a 25 cal going 2000 fps

 

[ButterBean]

Gunwerks has a great podcast on terminal performance, I dont recall the episode # but u can find it. They basically explain that impact velocity is more important than impact energy. The impact velocity is what causes bullet expansion, which let's the bullet do it's job and create a wound channel. Of course shot placement also affects the bullet expansion. But think about it this way, you can probably shoot a 408 or 50 cal at 900 fps, it's probably still got a lot of energy, but it's not going to get any expansion, and won't be as effective as a 25 cal going 2000 fps

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