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Have a WSM donor. What to build?

Can't go wrong with the 300 WSM. It will do everything the 270 WSM will do and more. You can load it down for mule deer if you want to get that flatter trajectory and load it up with heavier bullets for Elk. I shoot a Christianson Arms 300 WSM with 150 Grain Barnes TTSX bullets for Mule deer and am getting 3250FPS with them. My elk load is 180 grain Barnes TTSX and I am getting right at 3000FPS with those. The 300 WSM is jut hard to beat as a hunting round for most North American species due to all of the available load combinations you can load for it!
 
If you do a 6.5 PRC (that is what I would do) your slowest twist should be a 1-7.7. And faster would be better. You cannot have too much twist in my world, especially if you are going to shoot heavy for caliber bullets. Too many shooters are afraid of faster twists for some reason.
 
I am going to buck the trend here and suggest you build a 270 WSM rather than a 300 WSM.


The reason for my suggestion is that the WSM case does not have sufficient case capacity to provide enough muzzle velocity to optimize the performance of the optimal 30 caliber bullet (approximately 230 grains) relative to the optimal 270 caliber bullet (approximately 170 grains). Assume that you built two rifles (one 300 WSM and the second 270 WSM) on that same action that were equally accurate and you tested both builds with the optimum .308 and .277 bullets using loads that you developed that achieved the highest MV in each case, there is a higher likelihood that you will hit your intended target with the 270 caliber bullet more frequently than you will with the same action with a 30 caliber bullet (at long range).


I own several 300 RUM's, .308's as well as developed loads for 300 WIN Mags owned by several of my friends. I built two 270 WSMs for my twin daughters and developed loads for those rifles as well. All the bolt action rifles within my family are sub ½ MOA.


I live in Utah and we use our rifles to hunt deer, elk and antelope as well as to shoot long range at steel plates in the desert west of Salt Lake (I use my 300 RUM hunting rifles out to 1 mile + and the 270 WSMs to 1000 meters +). We've used both the 30 and 270 calibers to take all three species (all animals died quickly) so they work just fine at longer ranges (out to 800 to 1000 yards).


The reason for my suggestion is that I suggest you build the rifle around the optimum bullet for each caliber you are considering and that you match the bullet weight to the case capacity so you can achieve the optimal MV and downrange performance (more hits on the target). If you read Bryan Litz' books, he has at least one chapter on the optimal bullet weight for a given caliber. He has also written articles on the 30 caliber bullet and why it is less popular as a "long range bullet" than other calibers (the same problem existed with the 270 caliber until recently) – Please see Litz' article "what is wrong with .30 caliber?"


http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC110_WhatWrong30Cal.pdf


The short answer is that there is nothing wrong with the 30 caliber or the 270 if you match the optimal bullet weight to the caliber (i.e. the diameter). There is an optimum bullet weight for each caliber. Specifically, the optimal weight of the bullet is sufficiently high enough to maximize cross sectional density (and BC) without increasing the length of the bullet (to achieve the greater weight) so much to the point where it become too difficult to stabilize the longer projectile. The optimal weight for the 30 caliber is around 230 grains and the optimum weight for the 270 is around 170 grains. Please read his article. I don't have the technical expertise to debate the topic nor do I have the empirical evidence Bryan has collected to substantiate the claim. I can say that my rifles 30 caliber and 270 caliber rifles perform better with the optimally weighted bullets for each caliber than they do with other bullets within the same caliber.


To optimize the performance of any given caliber, I like to obtain a reasonably high muzzle velocity for the bullet I am using (2900 fps to 3100 fps) while simultaneously maintaining accuracy and staying within recommended pressure limits. When I developed loads for the 300 WIN Mag, the heaviest bullet I used was a 210 grain Berger VLD Hunter. The muzzle velocity I achieved with these rifles was between 2700 fps and 2800 fps. When I used a 230-grain bullet (the Berger 230 grain Hybrid Target) in the 300 WIN Mag, my MV dropped by 50 fps to 75 fps (while still maintaining accuracy).


In all my 300 RUM builds and 270 WSM builds I achieve MVs of around 2950 fps to 3050 fps using the optimum bullet weights (230 grain for the 308 caliber and 170 grain for the 277 caliber). Applied Ballistics has software that simulates the distribution of hits (aka the groupings) on the target given initial conditions (e.g. specific bullet, MV, group size at 100 yards, atmospheric conditions, distance to target, shape of target etc). You can use that software to test the performance of your intended rifle builds without going through the expense of building multiple rifles. That is a great deal!


When I simulate the same bullet (e.g. the Berger 30 caliber 210 grain VLD) fired from different rifles under the same initial conditions accept one rifle produces a MV that is 250 fps slower, the probability that I hit my target at distances beyond 500 yards decreases significantly using the rifle with lower MV. Similarly, if I use the simulation to compare the Berger 30 caliber 210 grain VLD at 2700 fps vs the Berger 270 caliber 170 grain Elite Hunter at 3000 fps, I have a higher percentage of bullets landing on my intended target if I use the 270 caliber bullet (traveling at a higher MV) than the 210 grain bullet. In his books, Litz runs comparisons between the Berger 30 caliber 230 grain Hybrid Target and several brands of 300 grain 338 bullets (Sierra, Lapua and Berger) and the 230 grain Hybrid Target outperforms at least one of the other brands as measured by hits (distances beyond 1200 yards).


The point is that the optimally weighted and shaped bullet for each caliber can fly materially better than the other bullets within the same caliber or even across calibers (e.g. Litz' test of the 230 grain 30 caliber bullet vs. 300 grain 338 caliber bullets) which will result in more bullets hitting your intended target (particularly at longer ranges). Each case has only so much propellant capacity and the heavier the bullet you use for a given case will result in lower muzzle velocities for that given case (assuming you don't want to exceed maximum chamber pressures). If I wanted to build a 30 caliber rifle for hunting, I would build it around a larger case capacity than the WSM case to maximize the performance of the optimal bullet. If I was given an action that could be used for either a 270 WSM or a 300 WSM, I would build a rifle around the bullet and seek to optimize the performance of the bullet. I would build a 270 WSM.


I realize that I did not address the issue of "downrange energy" which is relevant to hunting. My theory on that topic is that downrange energy less relevant if the trade of is a reduction in the probability that you hit your intended target. In addition, my experience with both the 270 WSM and the 300 RUM had plenty of downrange energy to kill all the animals we were shooting at.


Sorry for the long answer. I have had this debate with my friends for a long time. I have also spent 000's of dollars building rifles only to have "case capacity envy". Specifically, I would build a new rifle only to learn that the case that I built my rifle around was insufficient to launch the optimum bullet for the caliber of the barrel. I would then have to switch out the barrel or sell the rifle. I now start my rifle builds with "what caliber do I want, what is the optimal bullet weight for that caliber and can I use the receiver with the case capacity that will produce the maximum MV for the optimal bullet in that caliber.
 
"Off the shelf" cartridges and "long range" don't go as well together. Especially if we are talking short action, Magnum bolt face cartridges! You need to be proficient in reloading to capitalize on these types of cartridges! 7mm SAUM would be my choice but if you need factory ammo I tould choose a very common round like 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag. If your action doesn't accommodate these standard rounds and you don't want to reload then trade it in on a standard long action Magnum bolt face!
 
I do reload and have for 20+years, but I have zero time for now. It might change in the future but for now.

Where did you find a 1:7 proof? (I'm looking for a Sendero Lite)

Just called 'em. They just started offering them.
 
"Off the shelf" cartridges and "long range" don't go as well together. Especially if we are talking short action, Magnum bolt face cartridges! You need to be proficient in reloading to capitalize on these types of cartridges! 7mm SAUM would be my choice but if you need factory ammo I tould choose a very common round like 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag. If your action doesn't accommodate these standard rounds and you don't want to reload then trade it in on a standard long action Magnum bolt face!

I agree that "off the shelf" ammo doesn't perform well enough to make long range fun. However, there are companies out there that will develop a load for your rifle, measure the velocity of the optimal round, keep the load data for you and reload rounds and mail the finished rounds to you. You can order new rounds as needed. I don't know if these companies will reuse your brass but cannot imagine why they wouldn't. Unfortunately, the service is expensive but you get what you pay for. I guess I should remind my daughters that they are lucky their dad makes ammo for them that shoots well in their rifles.

I have developed loads for "stock rifles" that allow the rifle to perform as well as any $4000 custom rifle. The point being the weak link in the performance of the system (rifle, optics and ammo) is typically the ammo. Often times you can design the ammo to optimize the performance of the rifle without having to spend lots of money on a rifle (although building a rifle is fun).

I do recall that this thread started off with the requirement that the round be "off the shelf":

" Iwould like to stick to a cartridge that I can buy off the shelf."

However, I haven't seen anyone consistently get the performance out of a custom built rifle to justify the cost and effort to build it if all they were going to do was use off the shelf ammo. Firms like Gunwerks provide the entire system and supply the handmade ammo that works consistently in the rifles they build. If you chose to build your own rifle (which is fun too), you have to be lucky to find something that works in your new rifle off the shelf and then you have to be lucky enough to find a consistent source of that ammo.

I agree with Midnightmalloy. If "off the shelf ammo", is the starting point and you still want to build a rifle because that process is fun, then trade the action for one that works with a more popular cartridge so you have more ammo choices. You may get lucky and find ammo that your new rifle likes and be able to find it on the shelf consistently.

I have not spent any time evaluating the 7mm SAUM. I will spend some time looking at that round when it is time to rebarrel my daughters' WSM's.
 
I agree that "off the shelf" ammo doesn't perform well enough to make long range fun. However, there are companies out there that will develop a load for your rifle, measure the velocity of the optimal round, keep the load data for you and reload rounds and mail the finished rounds to you. You can order new rounds as needed. I don't know if these companies will reuse your brass but cannot imagine why they wouldn't. Unfortunately, the service is expensive but you get what you pay for. I guess I should remind my daughters that they are lucky their dad makes ammo for them that shoots well in their rifles.

I have developed loads for "stock rifles" that allow the rifle to perform as well as any $4000 custom rifle. The point being the weak link in the performance of the system (rifle, optics and ammo) is typically the ammo. Often times you can design the ammo to optimize the performance of the rifle without having to spend lots of money on a rifle (although building a rifle is fun).

I do recall that this thread started off with the requirement that the round be "off the shelf":

" Iwould like to stick to a cartridge that I can buy off the shelf."

However, I haven't seen anyone consistently get the performance out of a custom built rifle to justify the cost and effort to build it if all they were going to do was use off the shelf ammo. Firms like Gunwerks provide the entire system and supply the handmade ammo that works consistently in the rifles they build. If you chose to build your own rifle (which is fun too), you have to be lucky to find something that works in your new rifle off the shelf and then you have to be lucky enough to find a consistent source of that ammo.

I agree with Midnightmalloy. If "off the shelf ammo", is the starting point and you still want to build a rifle because that process is fun, then trade the action for one that works with a more popular cartridge so you have more ammo choices. You may get lucky and find ammo that your new rifle likes and be able to find it on the shelf consistently.

I have not spent any time evaluating the 7mm SAUM. I will spend some time looking at that round when it is time to rebarrel my daughters' WSM's.

You are making a good point for a 6.5prc and adding a 300nm later.

I originally wanted to stick to a off the shelf caliber because it makes it easier for me to get going. With 3 boys now, and as many jobs, I have no free time. I still reload for almost everything I shoot when I have time. I just don't want to have to depend on having the time to do the development and loading. It's not that I don't have the equipment, ability or enjoy it, I just don't have the time.

I get that most factory rifles can be tuned to shoot with most custom rifles. However, if you start out with everything trued and quality parts then it should shoot different loads more consistently. Take for instance my last 6cm that GAP put together for me, it shoots every factory ammo I've tried into little groups. I have some other range rifles that are amazingly accurate with factory ammo.

So for my requirements I could see stretching out to 350-400yds for elk, typical would be 100-200yds. Deer would be a little further, I passed on a nice buck across the valley last year at 650yds, because my 6cm doesn't pack enough energy that far out. So figure maybe 800yds would be nice for deer.

I've owned and hunted with everything from a 30-30 to the 30-378weatherby. I have already got through my magnumitis, and other then the 300nm the bigger 300's don't really interest me.
 
With 140 class bullets that CM should have been plenty energy for a deer at 650. Ever see the cow elk dropped w/ the CM at 600? Bang flop.
 
270 WSM is a great caliber, especially if you select a 1:8 twist for the 170ish grain bullets. It will deliver 1500 ft-lb energy at 1000 yards; similar to a 300 WSM using 215 Berger hybrid target but with less drop and less recoil. The 180 and 195gr 7mm in the WSM will also deliver 1500 or more ft-lb at 1000 yards. These 3 WSMs are very similar in energy delivery down range when nearing full potential out to 1000 yards. If you extent the range the 7mm 195 EOL will start pulling away from the others. The 7mm WSM with the 195 EOL is simply a fantastic combination with a 1:8 twist barrel. We shoot all three but the 270 WSM is the most comfortable to shoot and will deliver at any reasonable range.
 
How do the longer bullets fit into a Winchester WSM action?

I use the 270 170 gr Berger Elite Hunter. I seat the bullets so that the Ojive is 0.01" off the lands. The loaded rounds fit in the magazine well and I have no problem feeding them one at a time when at the range.

The chambers in my daughters's 270 WSM's are cut tight. If you have a long throat on your barrel, what I described above may not work.

The 170 gr bullets fly very well. We have no problem shooting steel out to 1200 meters. The longest shot on an animal was 400 meters but I think the round is good to at least 1000 yards as mentioned by JTB.

These 270 WSM's are being used by 17 year old girls. They are soft shooters. My girls can shoot 75 rounds at a time no problem but the rifles are suppressed which definitely helps.
 
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