Hammer bullets WTH

[Quintus]

Gday Shane & quintus I think I can bundle you both in here

The tip issues are a little different but yet kinda the same
Double Dutch I know & once bean puts the video i did up I hope that answers a few questions

But I'll also add what you have with the hammer design regardless of style is the need for fluid to enter the hp to create the hydraulics that separates/sheds the petals from the shank

Now this has been documented extensively & as soon as a person done media testing that as @dogz put up


or like the results were straight forward & irregular shedding if much @ all & everyone basically over it & advised to put some h2o in front even a snap lock sandwich bag done wonders

Now what this has to do with the hammers now is simple in the beginning all hammers had the residual machine oil left in the hp which on impact in the critter pretty well regardless of the impact resistance ( yes got the odd nose over but your twist Band-Aid quintus basically solved it especially your ranges ( not eliminated )
So pretty well it didn't matter what part of a critter you hit the hydraulic system due to the oil residue gave consistency or a level of it anyway

Enter weatherby & they required no oil residue which the hammerheads as we were called tested this out & found nothing that was detrimental but we didn't understand the whole process or should say test enough & thoroughly enough
But as time went on we started seeing snippets of pill failures & myself included & took a penny drop moment when I was chatting to a mate over his latest batch of pills & getting extremely poor results & our minds straight to alloy issues as many others have ( yes alloy is important but not as important as I once thought ) but my mind went hang on on this pill
View attachment 638123
This is a hydraulic issue not a alloy
( that was found out around 30 years ago on different pills on some pretty cool testing a mate & I did ) hmmm moment yep so off testing I went but with Sierra first as that pill was the worst @ nose over I've ever used & wow the difference was incredible once I added the beeswax to the hp cavity
So then onto hammers & same results of couldn't get a failure

I was lucky to be invited on a deer cull & Pretty substantial numbers were taken that allowed some pretty good information on me understanding dry & wet impacts as I call them now

& here it is for you quintus imo
Keep smacking a critter in the fleshy shoulder meat or like impact's & pretty well all good without oil ( or beeswax in my case but plenty of substitutes that others put forward on finding out )
But you hit that rib on a angle on a lighter conditioned critter or spine of the scapular the bridge of the nose or the knuckle on a angle etc & get ready for the bingo raffle as these placed shots have basically no fluid in them ( dry impacts as I now call them) & the results are erratic to darn right terrible

So to me I don't have a issue shooting the hp varieties especially the hh&ah but without a hydraulic additive I would rather shoot a frangible lol & a light for calibre one at that as @ least I know what out come I'd get pretty well ea time
& only need to do oil or wax etc with the ones your hunting with not everyone
But one's own choice I'm not saying have to just what I've seen

Now the hht please don't add oil as that's a disaster
We tried various things like oil , shortening the stems add graphite to the tip prior to installing, lengthening tip stems thinking stems & more but with the current tip polymer you have got a pill that's still relying on hydraulic once again to get the pill to work & the properties of that polymer while it is majorly improved by getting a good friction to fit ratio but it in no way it's the magic bullet for terminals improving & especially so in the 3mm tip pills as everyone of those I tested give me the hp ones as they are terminally superior

Yet the original prototype tip tested was outstanding but also had its issues I believe but for me being a 500 & ( more 400) in guy I never saw a issue in accuracy but then again I'm not a good shot so I'm better keeping out of that stuff

There are some good hht but I've only seen a few of those and in the 2mm tips & the hp varieties just seem to be the easiest /safest option imo

Hopefully that answers the questions
Cheers

Thank you for the excellent detail Sir! Bees wax it is!

 

[fordy]

Seems like a series of gel tests at different velocities would help show issues, yes?

Gday FFF as Aaron said I've got a bit better information than gel yes lung material is always better imo
I'll get onto the videos & send to bean to put up for you guys to see a comparative of the prototype tips vrs the current tip

Just give me some time please well should say bean as he's already got enough off me to put up tonight lol
Cheers

 

[fordy]

Thank you for the excellent detail Sir! Bees wax it is!

your welcome sir
Bean put a video up on his channel or whatever it's called on how I do it but I'm sure you'll refine it & could you let me know how you do yours as always a better way
So looking forward to yours
Cheers

 

[fordy]

Across the board ( low to high speed) you are saying that for a mono the apex ab's seem to work best for you?

Gday cohunt

Across the board on the 6.5's the apex is the most consistent opening pill kills the best @ the sub 2300 ish impacts but really shines @sub2000 impacts ( I dislike all those impacts lol ) the interesting one was the mcquire 125sf copper rose as it kinda showed it has promise to knock the 125hht hammer off the high impact perch 2800 plus impacts as it showed enough of the 2600/2700 impacts that it was superior to the hammer & apex but that pill I only done About 6 of those impacts & need a few more plus a couple more angles to get a better understanding of it but if was the best pill hands down on raking shots for quickly securing the critter but I really need to do more work with this design as it's a completely different approach by Sam that's showing good things

So yes I've got more mcquire coming down under lol

On the mid impacts depending on shot angle taken you could throw a blanket over those 3 pills & be happy I think

The higher impacts are the bandaids for the 125hht
If one was going to creep into lower impacts I'd definitely go the apex & that even against the 123&147eldm 's on light resistance's especially

Cheers

 

[bigngreen]

You can get a similar effect of long range with a short barrel and fast twist barrel. For example, for certain 30cal tests, you could use a really short barreled 300 Blackout and a 1:6 twist or faster barrel to get low MV but still a high RPM. I've done it.

Yes, you can BUT if we're leaning hard on a more scientific method, actually data driven we organically hit these impact speeds from the same exact load, exact same stresses then isolate the variable to impact speed.

 

[ButterBean]

 

[bigngreen]

Is it just me or does the actual bullet look different? Length, ogive shape and definitely the color of the copper is different

I really tried to get better pics. Here is the same two bullets picture taken from the same camera position best I can but swapping bullet positions for each pic. Then base to ogive and repeating the same measurement but for the boat tail. Pics might swap order but easy to see what I'm measuring.

 

[bigngreen]

So we're blending prototype and production and we're not posting all the test data on the different colors with test equipment that was also done?

 

[ButterBean]

 

[ButterBean]

So we're blending prototype and production and we're not posting all the test data on the different colors with test equipment that was also done?

 

[bigngreen]

Bean, if we're going to do this do it right. Obviously there is a difference, the conclusion was it's the polymer, OK let's look at that, polymer manufacture said you can put 2% of anything in it and not change it, then testing was done on all colors with test equipment which showed they are the same so within testing protocols we can scratch the polymer off the list in PRODUCTION bullet.
I assume these are injection molded, dont know but if they are, we've ruled out composition as an issue. Now manufacturing, I know if a mold is not temp controlled you have to scrap part till the mold temp has stabilized, can't think of a way to prove that without measuring a billion tips to the .00001 bit there is a plausible theory.

I know in one thread there was some tooling that was changed to hold even tighter specs so that's good and a fact.

I measured every production tip I have from early to recent runs in the production colors and they are identical so if this is an issue just my sample proves it's not universal.

 

[ButterBean]

Bean, if we're going to do this do it right. Obviously there is a difference, the conclusion was it's the polymer, OK let's look at that, polymer manufacture said you can put 2% of anything in it and not change it, then testing was done on all colors with test equipment which showed they are the same so within testing protocols we can scratch the polymer off the list in PRODUCTION bullet.
I assume these are injection molded, dont know but if they are, we've ruled out co.position as an issue. Now manufacturing, I know if a mold is not temp controlled you have to scrap part till the mold temp has stabilized, can't think of a way to prove that without measuring a billion tips to the .00001 bit there is a plausible theory.

I know in one thread there was some tooling that was changed to hold even tighter specs so that's good and a fact.

I measure every production tip I have from early to recent runs in the production colors and they are identical so if this is an issue just my sample proves it's not universal.

That's the whole problem, the color was never the issue, it was used as a reference only to point out that there was a problem but the higher ups couldn't see that even when it was explained to them and wasted a bunch of time and money to prove that the color made no impact when the problem was a $50 undersized drill bit.
The undersized hole caused to much friction and while lubing the tip before placement helped a little it didn't fix the problem( it has since been fixed).
Im gonna go ahead and get this off my chest, I loved Hammer Bullets and IMO they had the best mono on the planet, they always said they wanted all input good or bad, sadly that ended and the group I was involved with were told there was no need for us to " tinker" with their bullets anymore, "they know what they are doing".
I talked to a dear friend of mine last night and he reminded me when we all got on board with Hammer and I quote " There are a lot of bullets in the 95% range, I thought we were chasing that mystical 5%".
Now with that being said I wish them the best and I am not here on a vendetta or trying to hurt them in any way, I told the truth when the HH' we're the most lethal pill on the planet and I'm telling the truth now.
Bean

 

[HandgunHTR]

In my experience, a well constructed and designed bullet will make up for bad shot placement. Crap happens, like the examples I just gave, and we might not achieve the best shot placement we desired. A bullet that is forgiving to that and makes up for it SHOULD make it more about bullet construction than shot placement alone. Shot placement is crucial, don't get me wrong. Using a bullet within its particular limitations is also crucial and a factor that needs to be addressed.

Petey, can you go into a bit more detail regarding the bolded statement above?

How much room for error is there, really? What do you consider as "forgiving"?

The reason that I ask is that in my experience, a bad shot never has the outcome that I want (a quick, clean kill). Yes, a gut shot will eventually kill an animal, but it is never quick and on most of the game that I hunt (whitetails, pigs, elk, exotics, bears) it leads to very long days/nights and quite a few rodeos. So, if you have had different experiences, I would really like to hear about them as I will add them to my "knowledge base".

 

[bigngreen]

That's the whole problem, the color was never the issue, it was used as a reference only to point out that there was a problem but the higher ups couldn't see that even when it was explained to them and wasted a bunch of time and money to prove that the color made no impact when the problem was a $50 undersized drill bit.
The undersized hole caused to much friction and while lubing the tip before placement helped a little it didn't fix the problem( it has since been fixed).
Im gonna go ahead and get this off my chest, I loved Hammer Bullets and IMO they had the best mono on the planet, they always said they wanted all input good or bad, sadly that ended and the group I was involved with were told there was no need for us to " tinker" with their bullets anymore, "they know what they are doing".
I talked to a dear friend of mine last night and he reminded me when we all got on board with Hammer and I quote " There are a lot of bullets in the 95% range, I thought we were chasing that mystical 5%".
Now with that being said I wish them the best and I am not here on a vendetta or trying to hurt them in any way, I told the truth when the HH' we're the most lethal pill on the plan and I'm telling the truth now.
Bean

If that whole video was about hole size not the tip then you should have used the same tip to Guage multiple bullets to show a hole size issue not one bullet to Guage fit change on multiple tips. And if it was universal as being suggested mine should have exhibited a difference and they do not.
His conclusion was different polymer, how else should I take that?

The rest of what I have to say I'll PM you!