Hammer Bullets Pic

[MudRunner2005]

Yep, twist required is a function of length and weight. Mostly length. A shorter bearing surface with the same length would actually need more twist because it would lose weight. So it goes that the smaller bores need faster twist rates relatively to the bigger bores. The 6.5mm calibers in production are the only caliber that is up to date with how fast a twist should be. The market will come along, I hope.

Steve

I hope so, as well. For too long the .257 and 8mm calibers have been left to collect dust while everything else has evolved.

 

[snox801]

Yep I'm a huge .25 fan. Only problem I've found is lack of high bc bullets. Not to upset cause I gave detailed info to my smith on my .257 Roy. I would only shoot heavy 110gr plus pills. And asked him to provide me the best twist. I got a 1/10 so any newer bullets wouldn't work anyway. Now I make sure to specify the twist I want.

 

[mgood]

You know, if you slimmed that .264 125gr bullet down to a .257"...That would be one nasty bullet for the fast .25 shooters, like myself. Wonder what twist it would require to spin it?

If we duplicate the 6.5 and just shrink the dia it would be 1.39" long and weigh 115g (est). Launched at 3000fps at sea level, the min recommended twist would be 7.25". We have one that we have been working on that is designed for a 7" twist and comes in closer to 120g.

The reason I'm building a 6.5 when I've been using a 25-06 is for the higher BC bullets available in .264".

I hope so, as well. For too long the .257 and 8mm calibers have been left to collect dust while everything else has evolved.

Yep. I keep butting my head against the wall with the 8mm. Need heavier, higher BC bullets. But they seem to need a faster twist than the common 1:10, making the market even smaller than the already diminutive 8mm crowd, so almost no one makes them.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

The reason I'm building a 6.5 when I've been using a 25-06 is for the higher BC bullets available in .264".



Yep. I keep butting my head against the wall with the 8mm. Need heavier, higher BC bullets. But they seem to need a faster twist than the common 1:10, making the market even smaller than the already diminutive 8mm crowd, so almost no one makes them.

It all comes down to twist. It is not that bullet makers just hate these calibers and won't make high bc bullets for them. The factory offered rifles that almost all people use are not fast enough twist to shoot higher bc bullets. If you guys want to shoot higher bc bullets in .25 or 8mm just order a new barrel for your rifle and order some bullets from us. It will cost you less to re barrel an existing rifle than it would cost to buy a new factory rifle, if there was a faster twist factory rifle. Generally speaking you can order a custom barrel and pay for a gun smith to put it together and be about $500 to $600 bucks. Now you have a semi custom rifle better than most any off the shelf rifle, and capable of running your favorite caliber to long range. If you are worried about us being around for the rest of your life, then order a thousand rounds and still spend less in total than a custom rifle. I simply do not understand waiting and complaining that you would buy a new rifle if the bullet manufactures and the factory rifle manufactures would all start making the right stuff simultaneously. It's not going to happen. You guys have to do it your self. And as I explained, you can do it for less in total than a new high end factory rifle.

Steve

 

[450hunter]

Are you going to offer anything in the .358 caliber? I have a 350 Griffin & Howe and a 358 STA that needs some good bullets.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Are you going to offer anything in the .358 caliber? I have a 350 Griffin & Howe and a 358 STA that needs some good bullets.

We can certainly do it. What twist are your rifles?

Steve

 

[mgood]

It all comes down to twist. It is not that bullet makers just hate these calibers and won't make high bc bullets for them. The factory offered rifles that almost all people use are not fast enough twist to shoot higher bc bullets. If you guys want to shoot higher bc bullets in .25 or 8mm just order a new barrel for your rifle and order some bullets from us. It will cost you less to re barrel an existing rifle than it would cost to buy a new factory rifle, if there was a faster twist factory rifle. Generally speaking you can order a custom barrel and pay for a gun smith to put it together and be about $500 to $600 bucks. Now you have a semi custom rifle better than most any off the shelf rifle, and capable of running your favorite caliber to long range. If you are worried about us being around for the rest of your life, then order a thousand rounds and still spend less in total than a custom rifle. I simply do not understand waiting and complaining that you would buy a new rifle if the bullet manufactures and the factory rifle manufactures would all start making the right stuff simultaneously. It's not going to happen. You guys have to do it your self. And as I explained, you can do it for less in total than a new high end factory rifle.

Oh, I am with you. I appreciate what you're doing.

I mean that it's hard to get bullet makers to make special 8mm bullets because there aren't that many people who shoot 8mm (in this country, anyway). And since those special 8mm bullets would require a twist rate not offered in factory rifles, that means even fewer people would go for them. Which means even less incentive for a bullet manufacturer to cater to such a small market.

Well, I AM and 8mm fan. And I'm actually considering having a 1:9" twist barrel made. So I'm really glad that a couple of smaller manufacturers are out there making this stuff. If we want more selection, we have to buy the products to prove that there is a market.

You have any BC estimates?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Oh, I am with you. I appreciate what you're doing.

I mean that it's hard to get bullet makers to make special 8mm bullets because there aren't that many people who shoot 8mm (in this country, anyway). And since those special 8mm bullets would require a twist rate not offered in factory rifles, that means even fewer people would go for them. Which means even less incentive for a bullet manufacturer to cater to such a small market.

Well, I AM and 8mm fan. And I'm actually considering having a 1:9" twist barrel made. So I'm really glad that a couple of smaller manufacturers are out there making this stuff. If we want more selection, we have to buy the products to prove that there is a market.

You have any BC estimates?

I cut one today. We have not shot it. I can only estimate. I come up with .349 G7 bc. Now when I estimate I hope that I am low. So until we can shoot it and get some data, it is just an estimate.

Steve

 

[MudRunner2005]

It all comes down to twist. It is not that bullet makers just hate these calibers and won't make high bc bullets for them. The factory offered rifles that almost all people use are not fast enough twist to shoot higher bc bullets. If you guys want to shoot higher bc bullets in .25 or 8mm just order a new barrel for your rifle and order some bullets from us. It will cost you less to re barrel an existing rifle than it would cost to buy a new factory rifle, if there was a faster twist factory rifle. Generally speaking you can order a custom barrel and pay for a gun smith to put it together and be about $500 to $600 bucks. Now you have a semi custom rifle better than most any off the shelf rifle, and capable of running your favorite caliber to long range. If you are worried about us being around for the rest of your life, then order a thousand rounds and still spend less in total than a custom rifle. I simply do not understand waiting and complaining that you would buy a new rifle if the bullet manufactures and the factory rifle manufactures would all start making the right stuff simultaneously. It's not going to happen. You guys have to do it your self. And as I explained, you can do it for less in total than a new high end factory rifle.

Steve

Oh, I'm no stranger to the customs...Got several in the safe. . It's just that they still have plenty of barrel life left, so it's hard to justify the new blank when there's still plenty of life left in the ones already on them. I was just curious if it was something possible for the .25's with the standard 10" twist, since my .25-06 AI has the 10" twist, and lots of barrel life left.

It just seems that with all the new heavy non-standard twist requirement bullets being made, that the manufacturers are using the standard twist for certain less-popular bullets as a crutch to avoid doing the R&D.

I could be completely wrong, and it could just be a very hard thing to do, as I've never designed or swaged a bullet, but you can see how it might appear that way, from a consumer point of view.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Oh, I'm no stranger to the customs...Got several in the safe. . It's just that they still have plenty of barrel life left, so it's hard to justify the new blank when there's still plenty of life left in the ones already on them. I was just curious if it was something possible for the .25's with the standard 10" twist, since my .25-06 AI has the 10" twist, and lots of barrel life left.

It just seems that with all the new heavy non-standard twist requirement bullets being made, that the manufacturers are using the standard twist for certain less-popular bullets as a crutch to avoid doing the R&D.

I could be completely wrong, and it could just be a very hard thing to do, as I've never designed or swaged a bullet, but you can see how it might appear that way, from a consumer point of view.

It is just physics. It is not a decision or an attitude or a preference or too hard to do.

Steve

 

[MudRunner2005]

It is just physics. It is not a decision or an attitude or a preference or too hard to do.

Steve

Steve, thanks for all your insight. I'm not talking about your company, so please don't take it that way, I'm talking about bullet manufacturers in general. I'm also not necessarily talking about a heavy .25 cal that will work in a 10" twist, I get that physics will not allow that to happen.

I'm stating that with all the other new long range high BC and heavy non-standard twist required bullets being made, that it seems like they are purposely forgetting the .25 and 8mm calibers, because they aren't as popular as others have recently become. I mean, the .243 has them up to 115 grains (requires a 1:7 twist), the .264 has them up to 165 now (but they have recently pretty much standardized the 1:8 twist)....Why not the .257? There's no way a standard .243 barrel is going to properly spin those big 115's...So you will need an aftermarket barrel. But they still make them. Berger makes a 7mm 195 that requires a minimum of 8.5" twist...Preferably a 1:8"...Once again, non-standard twist. Berger also makes a .27 cal 170 (requires non-standard 1:8). Very few factory barrels come with anything fast enough to handle these modern bullets in just about every caliber. So, to me, the excuse of a non-standard twist, is just that.

I guess what I'm really asking, is why everybody seems to have sluffed off the .25 and 8mm, when every single other caliber available has been done, despite the non-standard twist availability?

 

[Pdvdh]

Business decisions to maximize the profit on their investment. They're in business to make money. The more the merrier.

 

[bigngreen]

What's hard to get about this, there are many guys shooting fast twist 243 and 7mm already, benchrest and f class guys are twisted already and buying by the lot, there is no shooting support for 25 or 323 cal other than a very limited factory offerings. Dies are thousands of dollars a piece and it takes multiple dies per bullet, changing a press and production line take a lot of money, developing and buying the jackets alone is a bid hurddle. It's about return on investment, if there is none it make zero sense to make unless a guy personally want it and puts up the capital like in the case of Marshal at Matrix or Bob Beck at EOL. Why do people want a business to loose piles of money when they won't even throw down a few hundred dollars for a new barrel, come on, really!!!

 

[MudRunner2005]

What's hard to get about this, there are many guys shooting fast twist 243 and 7mm already, benchrest and f class guys are twisted already and buying by the lot, there is no shooting support for 25 or 323 cal other than a very limited factory offerings. Dies are thousands of dollars a piece and it takes multiple dies per bullet, changing a press and production line take a lot of money, developing and buying the jackets alone is a bid hurddle. It's about return on investment, if there is none it make zero sense to make unless a guy personally want it and puts up the capital like in the case of Marshal at Matrix or Bob Beck at EOL. Why do people want a business to loose piles of money when they won't even throw down a few hundred dollars for a new barrel, come on, really!!!

Who would want to see a business lose piles of money, unless you were in direct competition? And even then, if you start the bandwagon, maybe you might be ahead of the curve and profit 100x over from that few-thousand dollars? Also, he cuts his bullets on a lathe, I don't think he requires molds...But I'm not positive, as I've never made bullets before. So not 100% on if he uses chunks of round-stock, or pre-molded unfinished slugs that need final lathe cutting?

Have you ever thought that maybe the market is non-existent now, because back when all this got started, they never made a heavy high BC bullet offering in those calibers, so now it is a very small market... The bullet manufacturers created this small niche' market we now have. I don't know, but it could have been the downfall? Saying there is no market out there, is a matter of opinion. If every other caliber bullet on earth has a LR market, don't you think it's about time we brought the .257 and 8mm up to speed to see if we can give every shooter an option? For decades the 25-06 and .257 Weatherby have been extremely popular, along with the .257 Roberts, and numerous other .257 cartridges. The 8mm RemMag and .325 WSM would have probably been a lot longer lived had there been a better selection of 8mm bullets for it during the height of its popularity.