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GUESS WHAT!
- Thread starter Coyote Shadow Tracker
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I think that I am about done buying "Toys" for reloading. If i can't put together a great cartridge with what we have, I'll never be able to. I think that the only new electronic tool I don't have is the AMP Press. I don't, think at this time, will make much of a difference with adding another process. Not saying that it won't.Jeez and they complain about gunsmiths taking too long to install a barrel.Just saying.....
Good luck with your new toy!
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Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
I look at some of the short range benchrest shooters and their techniques, how they throw powder by clicks on powder measure, and the size of the groups they shoot at 100, 200, and 300 yards with a PPC. It's got to make you wonder what is really necessary. I get it that different powders meter differently, but the accuracy by volume is there. So if you miss a charge by a kernel or 2, is it really that significant given the other variables of brass, bullets and primers?
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
Something that doesn't make a difference at 300 yards can make an outsized difference at a mile.
If you take a 13 twist 6PPC shooting a 65gn bullet that makes one hole at 300 yards and shoot it at 1000, what happens?
If you take the same 6PPC case and put an 8 twist on it to shoot 105gns at 1000 yards, what does the 300 yard hole look like?
If you shoot either of those to 1760 yards, what happens?
Short to mid/long range (whatever you want to call out to 1,000 yards), barrel harmonics and tuning and all the benchrester stuff is important, ES could easily be 100+ FPS and it doesn't matter at all. The short range benchrest guys tune their loads using what I swear is magic on their little mobile reloading setups and make smaller holes than I could poke with a pencil. But they also use so many wind flags the range looks ridiculous, not all that practical for other uses.
Extended long range, extreme long range, ultra long range, whatever you want to call 1000 yard+/ mile+ shooting, things like ES can take on an outsized importance compared to other factors. BC basically does not matter at 100 yards, but at 2000 yards one bullet varying from another can be the difference between a hit and a miss, combine that with being a grain or two of of charge weight and you have a compounded error.
I build loads differently for short range and long range - mainly different components but also by accepting different levels of statistical metrics and on-target group sizes. I use the V4 for almost all of it because it's what I have, but that doesn't mean a volumetric wouldn't work just as well/better on the short end of the spectrum. On the long end though, that kernel or two might matter a lot.
Could you elobrate on what you mean. TKS
Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
Of course you wouldn't shoot a PPC at long ranges no matter what bullet and twist you have because it just doesn't have the horsepower. But, it would be interesting to see someone, that had the equipment, intentionally load a long range cartridge and vary the load +- that one or two kernels of powder just to see how much of an effect it would really have. I'm not too sure that with all the variables that are possible in components and external conditions that most shooters would be able to tell the difference. Still, I'd like to see some proof one way or the other.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
Quote/Thead - Alex Wheeler, 1/20/22
"I (Alex Wheeler) have been shooting 1k for a long time. There are so many rabbit holes you can go down. My opinion is that 99% of your rifles accuracy is the tune. Sorting and measuring help but not until your at a certain level. Glenn Kulzer shot 8 new records in 2021, no other feat has come close in 1000y shooting."
Sort of looks like this to me.
"I (Alex Wheeler) have been shooting 1k for a long time. There are so many rabbit holes you can go down. My opinion is that 99% of your rifles accuracy is the tune. Sorting and measuring help but not until your at a certain level. Glenn Kulzer shot 8 new records in 2021, no other feat has come close in 1000y shooting."
Sort of looks like this to me.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
You won't be shooting in the .1s and 2.s with the 105 because of mechanical dispersion due to the higher twist rate needed to stabilize the longer bullet. The size of the 6PPC group at 300 yards is based just as much on bullet design and precision in manufacturing of the 6 BR Column as a 1000 yard winning group is based off the design and precision in manufacturing of a very different 105 gn bullet. The short range bullet doesn't have a boat tail to decrease length and reduce variances in center of gravity, the 105gn grain is a secant ogive boat tail that is designed to transition into trans-sonic range and remain stable. They are literally different bullets designed for different purposes. The 6 BR Column doesn't need a verifiable BC because the drop over 300 yards is less than wind drift from a bad read. The BC of the 105gn is critical because vertical dispersion at 1000 yards can be enough to miss the X-Ring.
Firstly, 6PPC 100% has to horsepower to be competitive at 1000 yards. It has the case capacity for the bore - the difference between a 300 yard and 1000 yard gun is the barrel twist and the bullets it runs.
Secondly it's not difficult to determine vertical dispersion due to ES. AB has an entire WEZ program literally dedicated to doing the math on hit probabilities based on tolerances. A short range benchrest load that has a 30SD/130 FPS ES will not paper as good as a 5SD/28ES load at a mile. It WILL paper better at 300 yards though, because the tuning of the short range load is much more dependent on harmonics (which are waves, that go up and down), compared to the mile load which is much more based on probabilities.
If I loaded 10 rounds with a Lee dipper and 10 on my V4, when I go 0/5 with those vs 3/5 at 500 yards with my normal loads will you believe me then? You'd probably blame the shooter, because who can't go 5/5 at 500 yards? Well when the target is 3", a surprising number of people can't. Want to know why?
Because there's a wind angle you're ignoring. Errors compound. Vertical dispersion is easy to control for with tune (inside 1k yards) and ES (outside 1k yards). When it comes to minimizing ES by setting charge weight to the kernel, it's because at that point you're playing a probability on vertical error not being as impactful as bad as wind calls - the horizontal from wind is significantly more impactful than vertical from tune or ES, so for ELR shooting control for the vertical as best you can with precise charge weights and loads because wind cannot be controlled for. A mile is 1760 yards, that's a lot further than 1,000 yards.
How Much Does SD Matter?
As long-range shooters, we tend to obsess over every little detail. After all, we’re trying to hit r...
It's kind of funny that Hugnot quoted Alex Wheeler. Ask him if he tunes to the absolute smallest vertical error, or if he accepts a larger vertical error because a load with slightly more bucks the wind better. At 1000 yards, he'll give up and inch of vertical for two inches of horizontal. But at 2 miles, than inch of vertical is really a yard of vertical if the ES is wrong.
Keeping it simple with reloading
Some guys have done that. Tuned for best es then used a tuner to bring in the accuracy. You can do it. But I dont know of any that have won big matches or set records doing it. Inside of 1k barrel harmonics far overcome es. If I was to get serious about elr where es would eventually...
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I think reloading taught me to be more "patient"in general and it's carried over to other areas. You learn to slow down and pay attention to details, if you don't you usually give up on reloading.
Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
That's a great explanation! But that leaves me wondering why you never see anyone setting up a PPC, with the right bullets, to compete at 1000 yards and it is always a 6BR, or a variant, or a larger cartridge all together. After all it is supposed to be the most accurate cartridge known, so you should potentially be able to get the ES/SD down as low as anything else, right?
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
Because why not have ~9-10 more grains of case capacity. Be competitive, not win 
I'm not making 10-shot 3" groups at 1,000 yards. I used a 243 and I'm going up to AI, not down to Dasher.
I'm not making 10-shot 3" groups at 1,000 yards. I used a 243 and I'm going up to AI, not down to Dasher.
Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
Yep.....Not enough horsepower! 
No sense in competing with a riding mower at a drag strip.
No sense in competing with a riding mower at a drag strip.
Hey Y'all
I just put this post up to see is a few of you could guess what was in the BOX. I was happy to get my V-4 since was waiting for it since last year and wanted to share. If anyone looked at the package and the return address they would have seen "Adam McDonald". Anyone knowing about the V3 or V4 would have known that this package from Adam would have had the new V4 in it.
This really morphed into what a precision scale is use for when there is a difference getting down to 'Grain" of powder and the effects of FPS at distance. MORE so the effect of SD/ES.
I just put this post up to see is a few of you could guess what was in the BOX. I was happy to get my V-4 since was waiting for it since last year and wanted to share. If anyone looked at the package and the return address they would have seen "Adam McDonald". Anyone knowing about the V3 or V4 would have known that this package from Adam would have had the new V4 in it.
This really morphed into what a precision scale is use for when there is a difference getting down to 'Grain" of powder and the effects of FPS at distance. MORE so the effect of SD/ES.
I figured I had a 50/50 chance on a V4 or a shot marker. lol
I'm waiting on a shot marker myself.
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