good news from AZ

[bigbuck]

Interesting as in It's making me think of the pros and cons. Generally I think anything that gains us ground and makes the anti's loose ground is a good thing. As just one example Starbuck's position (supports it) on open carry in California...I'm delighted.

Then, I wonder(no facts in yet so haven't taken a position.) will it become so easy so as to minimize the awesome responsibility of carrying coupled with no training and does this eventually lead to incident/s where poor judgement and /or lack of training are maybe the root cause but instead it gives the media/anti's fuel to beat the drums about gun crazed individual blah blah...so does it have the potential to back fire. Not to mention, there's a bunch of regs covering do and don't's that can get you in serious trouble w/o even unholstering your weapon...so w/o training is it realistic that an individual/s unknowingly get arrested. As just one example: where and where not to carry.

I don't know but I've seen folks the day after Christmas with their brand new shiny auto...never having owned or used a firearm in their life come to the range, and I got to tell you some are **** right dangerous. Unforetunate as it is it's atleast at the range and so I keep the my eyes open in the back of my head. I'm not sure I'm in favor of that environment out in town and round about the neighborhood.

It's kinda got me wondering that if a person has possesion of a vehicle then issue them a license and skip the training and any background/previous driving record check.

I've introduced many to the world of firearms...family and friends and before they ever touched a firearm they got trained. I'm just not sure how Billy Bob running around town the day after Christmas plays out.

Any of this make any sense or am I just out in left field alone here wondering?

I agree that it is an awesome responsibility but
Billy Bob w/o his training will always get his hands on a gun so will the crackhead and dope dealers ! They could care less what the Law says, they always end up with a gun. So should the just man have to do without ? If an idiot walks into a resteraunt and starts blowing people away while you are setting their would you rather billy ignorant without his training help you out or not ? I would say that in this case a law abiding citizen or CWP would save more lives than harm them ! Maybe I'm in Left field.

Way to Go AZ !!!

BigBuck

 

[Chas1]

Bigbuck, my apologies I should have done a better job of explaining the example of Billy Bob.

Billy Bob is a law abiding citizen which most folks are, except now most of the Billy Bob's can legally carry a firearm loaded w/o training and I not sure it's a good idea to have Billy Bob anywhere near me or my grandkids in the grocery store, school, park, neighborhood etc.

Sure I understand the rest of your logic but, IMHO the odds of an accidental discharge of a firearm by an untrained individual far exceeds the Joe Thug crime scenario. Put simply I've witnessed a few accidental firearm discharges in the military, work, the range, and hunting and yet in all my years I've never been in a situation where I had to unholster and/or fire my firearm at Joe Thug.

I just wondering if we have 1000's of Law abiding but untrained Billy Bob's out there packing a firearm 24x7 and maybe boozed up or whatever(see BB may not know that's illegal cause he hasn't been trained)...are the odds of an accidental discharge greater than Billy Bob saving the day at a crime scene.

I respect your opinion but disagree. I don't want anyone near me in a shootout that hasn't had the proper training...friendly fire is just as deadly.

Who amongst us has or would hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained? I wouldn't, would you?

 

[bigbuck]

Bigbuck, my apologies I should have done a better job of explaining the example of Billy Bob.

Billy Bob is a law abiding citizen which most folks are, except now most of the Billy Bob's can legally carry a firearm loaded w/o training and I not sure it's a good idea to have Billy Bob anywhere near me or my grandkids in the grocery store, school, park, neighborhood etc.

Sure I understand the rest of your logic but, IMHO the odds of an accidental discharge of a firearm by an untrained individual far exceeds the Joe Thug crime scenario. Put simply I've witnessed a few accidental firearm discharges in the military, work, the range, and hunting and yet in all my years I've never been in a situation where I had to unholster and/or fire my firearm at Joe Thug.

I just wondering if we have 1000's of Law abiding but untrained Billy Bob's out there packing a firearm 24x7 and maybe boozed up or whatever(see BB may not know that's illegal cause he hasn't been trained)...are the odds of an accidental discharge greater than Billy Bob saving the day at a crime scene.

I respect your opinion but disagree. I don't want anyone near me in a shootout that hasn't had the proper training...friendly fire is just as deadly.

Who amongst us has or would hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained? I wouldn't, would you?

A while ago on this site someone posted a video of a woman that had her dad shot to death in a resteraunt by a lawless criminal (with respect ) maybe you should ask her if she would have liked a so called "untrained" billy bob next to her at that time ...

I don't need a rule book to tell me that Budstupid and hand guns don't mix!
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is decieved thereby is not wise.

I think we should all agree that it is our RIGHT to keep and bare arms with or without training . If an individual feels inclined to get training that's great for that individual but I do not think we should be forced to get training. I feel like your view suggests that .

Just my .02

BigBuck

 

[Chas1]

I think we should all agree that it is our RIGHT to keep and bare arms with or without training . BigBuck

What is the basis for this belief?

BTW-I fully support the 2nd amendment.

Not sure if you missed my question or just avoiding it...it'll only take a second to answer with either a yes or no as it's a close ended question. So would you hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained?

 

[Briancrn113]

Chas1 I always worry where these emotion evoking topics will bring us. I think you absolutely have a good point. Who can argue that training isn't beneficial? I tend to worry more about the folks around me driving, or the kids all over being brought up is poor enviornments evidence has directly shown a clear connection between these types of things and societal ills. What hasen't been shown yet is a link between what must surely be a great number of untrained civilians carrying and increased accidents, crime etc. Maybe it's the personal responsibility involved with carrying that even Billy BOb can embrace...I'm not sure but I am sure many, many untrained people are carrying and not shooting themselves or others. I hope the freedom that they/we are enjoying is a powerful enough incentive not to screw up. Those that would or do not respect this would carry anyway if they wanted and they are the people who end up with three hots and a cot...and free education (I digress). On a lighter note I agree I don't want Billy Bob around me or my family if things go badly...however if said Mall Ninja can divert attention long enough for my family and I to reach safety maybe that is not such a bad thing! After all the herd can stand to loose Billy Bob!

 

[bb204]

You say you witnessed several accidental discharges in the military. Are these people not "properly" trained ? Who is to say, who is or is not "properly" trained ? I have never heard of a set standard of training. I would think the military would have some of the best available. Anything that would exceed this (I think) would cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. LEO training may or may not be more acceptable. Everyone that has not been through a "training"
course, is not a complete idiot. Some people actually used to be taught proper gun handling from fathers,grandfathers, and other friends and relatives. You can't teach common sense. All this, of course, is just my opinion FWIW. Oh..and to answer your question..If I am in the situation where someone with a gun intends to do harm. I would much rather "untrained Billy Bob" be there with a gun, than anyone, without one.
Rant Over....

 

[Chas1]

bb204, Either you didn't read all my posts or your half read before going into as you said your rant. No one said that everyone that has not been through a training coarse is a complete idiot. But some might be. Nor have I used the word coarse. I've exclusively used the word training and that can come in many forms...formal and/or informal, if you'd read and paid attention to one of my earlier posts you would have known this. Remember we're talking about a Concealed Firearm and in my state that's a 4 hour coarse that costs 35 bucks but, atleast you'd know what laws your subject too and what you can and can not do and the safe handling of a firearm. Also, I never asked the question: If I am in the situation where someone with a gun intends to do harm Where'd you get that one from? I didn't ask that question but, I did make this statement: I don't want anyone near me in a shootout that hasn't had the proper training...friendly fire is just as deadly.

I did ask this question: would you hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained?

Since you seem to have a problem with understanding my posts and since I don't know anyone that carrys an unloaded concealed firearm then I'll ask you this: Would you hand a loaded firearm to anyone knowing they were untrained either formal or informal? Bear in mind one of the examples I gave was the guy who the day after Christmas has their brand new shiny auto...never having owned or used a firearm. So would you?

You and others have your opinion and I respect that. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to have a different one. All I'm saying is how many Billy Bobs are out there I don't know but in my limited experience I've come across too many. Like the guy who just got his brand new shiny auto for X-mas having never touched or been around firearms his/her entire life and walks over to you with the gun loaded, and pointed at you with his **** finger in the trigger asking you how to unload it because the sign says you can't come to the firing line with a loaded firearm when folks are downrange. If Arizona wants to do away with any training requirement, more power to them. But, in my opinion and in my state 4 hours and 35 bucks ain't a big deal...is it fool proof of coarse not, there still will be some Billy Bob's out there but, hopefully a few less I've got to worry. Far to often and regretably in the news we hear about too many children or other family member fatally shot by accident in their home or thereabouts and IMHO I bet there wasn't much formal or informal training.

In case your in doubt or missed reading it in my previous post. I fully support the 2nd amendment.

 

[bb204]

Chas1, I apologize if I misunderstood or misread some of your post. My point was that "training", be it formal or informal, does not make a person "competent", if you will, to carry a gun. I personally don't think that this law is too wise, or will turn out as planned. This will make it much harder for LEO to distinguish "Billy Bob" citizen, from "Joe Thug". Both being legal, only because "Joe Thug" hasn't been convicted of anything "yet". Most "unsavory" characters wouldn't attempt to get a permit if there were a few questions that had to be answered and accounted for.There are a lot of people out there that are legal to buy a firearm, that IMO should not have them. There again JMO. But there again, they have the same 2nd Amendment rights,(That I believe in 100%) that I do. There are some that are too easily "lead astray" or get mixed up with the wrong crowd. I think that we're going the same place, but taking different paths.

 

[bigbuck]

bb204, Either you didn't read all my posts or your half read before going into as you said your rant. No one said that everyone that has not been through a training coarse is a complete idiot. But some might be. Nor have I used the word coarse. I've exclusively used the word training and that can come in many forms...formal and/or informal, if you'd read and paid attention to one of my earlier posts you would have known this. Remember we're talking about a Concealed Firearm and in my state that's a 4 hour coarse that costs 35 bucks but, atleast you'd know what laws your subject too and what you can and can not do and the safe handling of a firearm. Also, I never asked the question: If I am in the situation where someone with a gun intends to do harm Where'd you get that one from? I didn't ask that question but, I did make this statement: I don't want anyone near me in a shootout that hasn't had the proper training...friendly fire is just as deadly.

I did ask this question: would you hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained?

Since you seem to have a problem with understanding my posts and since I don't know anyone that carrys an unloaded concealed firearm then I'll ask you this: Would you hand a loaded firearm to anyone knowing they were untrained either formal or informal? Bear in mind one of the examples I gave was the guy who the day after Christmas has their brand new shiny auto...never having owned or used a firearm. So would you?

You and others have your opinion and I respect that. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to have a different one. All I'm saying is how many Billy Bobs are out there I don't know but in my limited experience I've come across too many. Like the guy who just got his brand new shiny auto for X-mas having never touched or been around firearms his/her entire life and walks over to you with the gun loaded, and pointed at you with his **** finger in the trigger asking you how to unload it because the sign says you can't come to the firing line with a loaded firearm when folks are downrange. If Arizona wants to do away with any training requirement, more power to them. But, in my opinion and in my state 4 hours and 35 bucks ain't a big deal...is it fool proof of coarse not, there still will be some Billy Bob's out there but, hopefully a few less I've got to worry. Far to often and regretably in the news we hear about too many children or other family member fatally shot by accident in their home or thereabouts and IMHO I bet there wasn't much formal or informal training.

In case your in doubt or missed reading it in my previous post. I fully support the 2nd amendment.

Chase1, I can understand your point but the thing is the "rule" of everyone gets training usually want stop with "everyone get training" it will only progress until the 2nd amendment that you supposedly support is no longer a true 2nd amendment .


"I did ask this question: would you hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained ?"

Now let me ask you the same question Would you hand say a mathews Bow to anyone knowing they were untrained?

If you can justify your view with that question then shouldn't we say the same thing concerning a Bow Because it could be a deadly weapon right .

One could argue the point that know one has ever walked into a resteraunt (that I know of ) with a bow and start flinging arrows at people . Have you ever wondered why? Maybe because they knew that they could get away with only an arrow or two before they got STOMPED !! So, my point is this, If the warped individuals knew that their was a great possibility that someone possibly a "billy bob" was in the resteraunt that they were going to enter .Had a concealed weapon They just might give it up and go home!! These folks are cowards thats why they blow thier own brains out (most of the time) after they have commited this terrible crime . They want face anyone (say the police) or ( CWP) head to head .

We have herd of an angry employee that has went home got a gun and shot not only his boss but other employee's then turned the gun on himself . Now what if "Billy Bob" had been their with his" brand new shiny auto from X mas" out in his car and he got his hands on it lets say he gets lucky and shoots the angry employee and because of that 5 or 10 more employees go home to be with their family... do you see a problem with peoples lives being saved ?


So I'll ask another question ? Have you ever handed a compound Bow to someone that was not trained ?

Lastly, why should an individual even be able to buy a weapon of any kind until he has had the "proper training" ? See the point is your view will never stop it will just grow into something that is not 2nd AMENDMENT .

You have a right to feel however you want but you seem to me to have one leg on each side of the fence and yet say " I fully support the 2nd Amendment"

BigBuck

 

[Chas1]

Bigbuck,

I'm pretty much a novice on the subject of bows so assuming a Mathews Bow is similiar to the crossbows I've seen in a few sporting goods stores and which I've only shot once then I'd say yes to training. Albeit it may be similar in nature to the training my son got when he was going to use my lawn mower for the first time. Took a few minutes of my time to cover do's and don't's, safety, what each lever control operates etc. Whether it's a firearm, crossbow, mower, car, boat, chainsaw and the list goes on I think training before operating makes sense.

If the issue of training gives you the impression I have one foot in and one foot out then I'm at a loss as to why you have that impression. That's your opinion and I respect it and your right to have it.

With respect to the angry employee work scenario. The subject is a concealed firearm so why BB goes to his car to get it is a little off but, I get your point. Both you and I can come up with examples where maybe Billy Bob saved the day or on the otherhand by accident ended someone's day. The examples back and forth could go on forever with neither one of us agreeing on yes or no to training. So we disagree. I wouldn't hand a loaded firearm over to someone untrained. And no I've never handed a compound bow to someone that was untrained, I never owned one.

bigbuck you wrote:

"Lastly, why should an individual even be able to buy a weapon of any kind until he has had the "proper training" ? See the point is your view will never stop it will just grow into something that is not 2nd AMENDMENT."

If your implying that's my point of view, then that's your perception but, not what I've wriiten. I haven't advocated any government mandatory training prior to buying a firearm. Do I think an individual should be trained before ever holding a firearm...you bet so does the NRA that's why they offer for example (right from their website) "The Home Safety Firearm Coarse" which covers the following: A four-hour course for safe gun handling that is conducted in the classroom only. Students are taught NRA's three rules for safe gun handling; primary causes of firearms accidents; firearm parts; how to unload certain action types; ammunition components; cleaning; care; safe storage of firearms in the home.

As far as one leg on each side of the fence then I guess I got company with the NRA and all it's members. I suppose it's possible but, do you really expect anyone to believe that you never ever introduced someone to the world of firearms and before handing them a loaded or for that matter an unloaded weapon that you didn't train them you simply did no training and handed them a loaded firearm and said figure it out yourself. Oh and better yet they just stuffed it under there shirt (now concealed) and went off to play with your kids in the backyard. I've seen you post here and there on LRH and you seem to be a pretty level headed guy so I'm guessing you wouldn't but that doesn't mean I think you got one leg on each side of the fence.

I intentionally wrote I fully support the 2nd amendment in hopes of letting folks know where I stand so as to avoid a ****ing contest with someone/s that wants to read more into what was written in the post and/or jump to conclusions etc as is often the case with emotionally charged subjects.

Chas

 

[dogdinger]

I would like to see our laws , whenever possible, err on the side of personal rights and liberties. In todays litigous society most every body knows that when you do something stupid, are negligent, and cause harm to someone, you can be sued into oblivion, therefore not many people are going to carry without proper training, unless maybe it is julio and leroy who are headed out to do a drug deal down the street from your house. Now as you and your wife walk by while taking a stroll in the neighborhood and all the "Hot Mama" talk starts, consider whether the 2nd ammendment was written as a tool of personal liberty and freedom to protect onesself and loved ones.

Most billy bob"s out there graduated from a daisy BB gun to a 22 at about age 8 and could shoot the eyes out of squirrels pretty soon thereafter. Ive known lots of LEO's that could barely hit their own foot.

Let's just wait and see how this experiment in true constitutional rights plays out and not prejudge the outcome. AJ

 

[Joaquin B]

more good news from AZ with the gov signing the immigration bill. Now if they can just get rid of John McCain they might make something of that state. I wouldnt even think of retiring there briancrn....after living in SD for so long you would not live through a summer there. You would melt into your shoes! AJ

We're working to get rid of "Ole RINO McCain", but he has lots of cash and unfortunately, Arizona has an open primary, which allows independents and democRats to participate in Republican primaries, so J. D. Hayworth is facing an uphill battle. We just need to get evryone energized to go vote for J. D. !!!

 

[bigbuck]

I would like to see our laws , whenever possible, err on the side of personal rights and liberties. In todays litigous society most every body knows that when you do something stupid, are negligent, and cause harm to someone, you can be sued into oblivion, therefore not many people are going to carry without proper training, unless maybe it is julio and leroy who are headed out to do a drug deal down the street from your house. Now as you and your wife walk by while taking a stroll in the neighborhood and all the "Hot Mama" talk starts, consider whether the 2nd ammendment was written as a tool of personal liberty and freedom to protect onesself and loved ones.

Most billy bob"s out there graduated from a daisy BB gun to a 22 at about age 8 and could shoot the eyes out of squirrels pretty soon thereafter. Ive known lots of LEO's that could barely hit their own foot.

Let's just wait and see how this experiment in true constitutional rights plays out and not prejudge the outcome. AJ

" I've known lots of LEO's that could barely hit their own foot."
I know one I seen him on youtube he was a black man with dread locks giving some sort of training program with a Glock and BAM it goes off and all of the sudden he's hopping around on one foot If my memory serves me correctly he was a Cop.

Chase1, You make some good points but I feel that it is a very fine line to not tread on our 2nd Ammendement. Maybe we can agree to dissagree.

I was at our state rally for the up coming elections of Governor this past Sat. and they said that our State will BACK & SUPPORT AZ's GUN laws and Immigrant Laws ! Man I love were I live we still salute the Flag of this great country .

Let me quote what one of the guys said at the rally.

" They can take my religion over my dead body or They can take my guns over their dead body " this came from someone thats already in office I love my State!!

BigBuck = Back in America

 

[dogdinger]

BB....you need to update your location. What state are you from?