For 7 mm enthusiasts

[Lefty7mmstw]

Have you heard of Cooper rifles? They are a smaller stateside maker that is building a left hand mid-weight barreled 7stw rifle. Other than that I'd look at Tikka, Browning, and Remington depending on the caliber you'd like.
I'm an oddbadd at heart with rifles and finally got into a left handed semi-custom in 7stw a year and a half ago. If the European calibers were'nt as bad as they are to get brass for I'd probably already be in that chambering.

oddbadd= oddball-- sleep typing I guess

I'd guess the capacity of the 7x66 puts it at the performance of the 7x300win wildcat.. Not a bad place to be in a standard length action.

 

[fmajor]

The 'standard' 7mm-300WinMag wildcat, imho, strikes the perfect balance for increased performance btw the 7mmRM (to me the beginning of serious "7mm Elk Medicine") and the much larger 7mmSTW/7mm Dakota/7mm RUM variants.

To me, a 180gr from a 7mm @ ~3,200FPS (I'm not interested in velocity higher than that due to the offsetting "expense" of barrel cooking) would really solidify my confidence on 500-700yd medium/large sized "on-game" shots for this bore size. If bullet impact performance - in particular wgt retention/appropriate expansion - remains consistently high, this would adjust my timeline for a "bigger hammer" by quite a bit given where I currently hunt.

I think the greater challenge for these high-velocity chamberings, in a hunting context, is managing sectional density for the purpose of maintaining useful terminal performance across the velocity range. For paper-punching or varmint hunting controlled expansion is not an important criteria, but for medium/large sized game it is a very important consideration.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

The 'standard' 7mm-300WinMag wildcat, imho, strikes the perfect balance for increased performance btw the 7mmRM (to me the beginning of serious "7mm Elk Medicine") and the much larger 7mmSTW/7mm Dakota/7mm RUM variants.

To me, a 180gr from a 7mm @ ~3,200FPS (I'm not interested in velocity higher than that due to the offsetting "expense" of barrel cooking) would really solidify my confidence on 500-700yd medium/large sized "on-game" shots for this bore size. If bullet impact performance - in particular wgt retention/appropriate expansion - remains consistently high, this would adjust my timeline for a "bigger hammer" by quite a bit given where I currently hunt.

I think the greater challenge for these high-velocity chamberings, in a hunting context, is managing sectional density for the purpose of maintaining useful terminal performance across the velocity range. For paper-punching or varmint hunting controlled expansion is not an important criteria, but for medium/large sized game it is a very important consideration.

I've never had any trouble blowing clean through anything I've touched with a bigger 7mm, whether it was a 7rem, 7stw, or 7rum. I usually use a mid weight bullet such as a 140 grain sierra or accubond. The Only bullet I've caught from a 7mm out of a few dozen 7mm kills was a 140 grain sierra pro hunter launched into a large whitetail doe at about 300 yards on a quartering run. The bullet weighed 82 grains after going through the hip. The bullet is the third from the left in the pic in this thread.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f72/bullets-98150/

 

[Varberger757]

Have you heard of Cooper rifles? They are a smaller stateside maker that is building a left hand mid-weight barreled 7stw rifle. Other than that I'd look at Tikka, Browning, and Remington depending on the caliber you'd like.
I'm an oddbadd at heart with rifles and finally got into a left handed semi-custom in 7stw a year and a half ago. If the European calibers were'nt as bad as they are to get brass for I'd probably already be in that chambering.

Thanks for the tip concerning Cooper rifles! I know about them and in particular about the Mod. 56. Great rifle, but due to American export restrictions it's almost impossible to purchase one. So long are there only two ways to get a Cooper into Northern - or Central - Europe. Shipping via Canada (long lasting process) or purchase in a Norwegian gunshop (surely get's his products from Canada too...) for prices between 2500 - 3000 Euro Tikka and its more expensive brother, the Sako, are good guns, but unfortunately only available with 23,5' bbl. Not that good for the performance. Remingtons are great and that's what I'm going use as a basic modul ( 700 CDL LH).

 

[Varberger757]

I'm also a huge proponent of the 7mm chamberings. I received my first 7mm Rem Mag (Rem 700 ADL) in the spring of 1983 as a high-school graduation present.

The 7x66 Super Express v Hofe sounds like a great wildcat chambering - especially with a beltless case. However, as mentioned, obtaining the brass cases is most often the greatest challenge. Is the .404 Jeffrey parent case readily available in your European market?

Here in the States, wildcatting is usually done with the more readily available cases/chamberings. That's not *always" true, but is the general practice and for many reasons.

A prime example and relevant to this topic is the 7mm/300 Win mag wildcat. This chambering produces ballistics between the 7mm Rem Mag and the 7mm STW (not unlike your 7x66 SE v Hofe) using readily available 300 Win Mag cases (OK, given the reloading component market of late few things are readily available....).

I'm planning on having a 7mm/300 Win Mag put together as soon as I'm able because I happen to have about 350 new, *same lot number* 300 Win Mag cases just waiting (and NO THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE!!!).

Great topic and excellent discussion thus far!!! That said, I'm also an advocate for the big .338's (think 338 Lapua AI or similar), but in a more strict application well beyond where I'd employ any 7mm.

For me, the faster 7mm's get the nod for my big-game hunting needs from antelope/mule deer up to elk at moderate ranges (400-500 yds).

Thank you for your detailed, substantial and very interesting post!
It's nice to hear that a good discussion is going on. That's precisely what I wanted to have, a discussion about one of our passions. Rifles in 7 mm for long - range hunting. Since I'm visiting this site my horizon both gun- and hunting wise got widened considerably. It's interesting to see the often different views of hunters from America, Canada and so on compared to us in Europe. It is just about the approach, which has to be (almost) without any prejudice.

 

[Varberger757]

Varberger, other than the "howitzer" bashing, a very interesting thread. The 7 x 66 Super Express vom Hofe sounds like it lies between the 7 WSM and 7 Dakota which are also based off the 404 Jeffry, which is probably my favorite basic case design.

Interestingly, in another thread, we have been discussing another European created cartridge being the 8x68S. I like it and it could easily be necked down to a 7mm. As it is, it would be very close to a 7/300 WM. If improved it can match the 7 STW which is the same as a 7 Dakota in performance. Norma makes the 6x68S brass and it is available here in the US for a reasonable price.... and.... it has no belt

I also like the 338 LM as a parent case for a 7mm cartridge and would pick that over a RUM for better brass and a more compact configuration which is friendlier to the longer high BC Long Range bullets.

BTW, On a side note, I shot the 300 RUM for a few years without a muzzle brake and shot many sub 1/2 MOA groups with it. My new 300 RUM wears a muzzle brake to both make it more pleasant and more effective in getting back on target which is important int the Long Range game. You will probably notice that most of the serious LR shooters in this forum put brakes on their rifles, even the small er calibers.

Good to hear that you like the threat and are contributing to it even though it's from the « softgun - fraction». When I started the thread, I really wasn't thinking about any kind of argument. The whole thing is about our passion, all kind of rifles in all kind of calibres for long – range hunting. Not more, not less. I believe that Mudrunner means the same and influenced by some bad experiences in the past for himself, he was so kind to warn me about possible reactions.
Personally I have more passion for the 7s, but I also own "howitzers" I really don't want to miss. My pseudonym Varberger comes from a superb Swedish shooter I own in 300WM.
It's all about personal preferences, and if someone like me has made his best hunting experiences with a 7 mm (Drilling in 7 x 65R) over a very long period (more than 30 years), so it might be no wonder. Anyone should use the gun(s) and calibre(s) he likes best. Live and let live!
The 8 x 68 S is IMO the best magnum in its calibre group between the 300 WM and the 338 WM due to performance and yes, it's beltless. Even here in Europe the 300 WM is the most popular magnum round, right in front of the 7RM and 8 x 68 S. Rum's, Saum's and STW are almost unknown, but that might change in future times. The 7 mm STW is hopefully the first one being discovered!

 

[angus-5024]

I wish that more 8mm were on the market. there really isn't a potential long range chambering in the 8mm other than the 8mm Remington, which is hard to find brass for (unless 7stw blown out). Then the real kicker is bullets.
What kind of velocity do you see with what weight of bullet with the 8*56?? What bullets do most people use??

Sorry for the side track guys.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Good to hear that you like the threat and are contributing to it even though it's from the « softgun - fraction». When I started the thread, I really wasn't thinking about any kind of argument. The whole thing is about our passion, all kind of rifles in all kind of calibres for long – range hunting. Not more, not less. I believe that Mudrunner means the same and influenced by some bad experiences in the past for himself, he was so kind to warn me about possible reactions.
Personally I have more passion for the 7s, but I also own "howitzers" I really don't want to miss. My pseudonym Varberger comes from a superb Swedish shooter I own in 300WM.
It's all about personal preferences, and if someone like me has made his best hunting experiences with a 7 mm (Drilling in 7 x 65R) over a very long period (more than 30 years), so it might be no wonder. Anyone should use the gun(s) and calibre(s) he likes best. Live and let live!
The 8 x 68 S is IMO the best magnum in its calibre group between the 300 WM and the 338 WM due to performance and yes, it's beltless. Even here in Europe the 300 WM is the most popular magnum round, right in front of the 7RM and 8 x 68 S. Rum's, Saum's and STW are almost unknown, but that might change in future times. The 7 mm STW is hopefully the first one being discovered!

Yes I know you were not intending to start a debate I like all manner of cartridges and my favorites are probably the smaller ones in 22 and 243 calibers. I just had a 6-284 built and am very excited about putting a lot of powder and bullets through it.

I have never heard of the 7x65R. If it is the same case as the 6.5 x 65 RWS then it is very similar in performance to the 280 Rem and 284 Win, both good cartridges. The 284 Win has the advantage of Lapua brass.

I have two 7 RM's and have shot them for many years. One is burned out and the other will be converted to a 270 Montana which is a wildcat I designed off the 300 Dakota. Not sure what my next 7 will be yet, but probably based off the 338 Lapua. When the Berger 195 EOL comes out, that will be quite a combination.

Interesting to find out the meaning of your "handle" (pseudonym) I didn't realize the 300 WM was so popular in Europe. A good cartridge for sure, but I prefer the beltless versions

Good shooting friend

 

[MudRunner2005]

I wish that more 8mm were on the market. there really isn't a potential long range chambering in the 8mm other than the 8mm Remington, which is hard to find brass for (unless 7stw blown out). Then the real kicker is bullets.
What kind of velocity do you see with what weight of bullet with the 8*56?? What bullets do most people use??

Sorry for the side track guys.

You can go to Midway and buy Nosler 8mm RM brass right now... Not sure on bullet selection, but I bet it would be a hard hitter with some good quality bullets like Berger or Nosler or Sierra...

 

[Varberger757]

I wish that more 8mm were on the market. there really isn't a potential long range chambering in the 8mm other than the 8mm Remington, which is hard to find brass for (unless 7stw blown out). Then the real kicker is bullets.
What kind of velocity do you see with what weight of bullet with the 8*56?? What bullets do most people use??

Sorry for the side track guys.

No problem, you're welcome.
You're right, there aren't that many 8mm chamberings to find currently. In Europe the 8 mm S ('323) has taken over completely and cleared the market from the unnecessary '318. All the 8mm are very popular and their market is still growing. The 8 x 57IS I(R)S in direct concurrence to the 30 06 by now in numbers of sale. The big advantage with the 8 x 57I(R)S is that you can use it in very short barrels without significant loss of performance. Don't get confused by (R), that means a rimmed/flanged case for rifles like drillings, single shot rifles, double rifle s/s and o/u. Brass you should find without any problem both for the 8 x57IS and the fantastic beltless 8 x 68 S magnum, Norma – USA, tip from Montana rifleman . May be you also can purchase it from RWS. All US producers make bullets, fab – ammo and brass for the 8 x57IS. IMO the best US fab – ammo is coming from Win and Hornady. Rem and Federal haven't got any velocity or other useful performance. Standard European velocities for the 8 x57IS with the most widely used bullet type 175 – (198)200gr are between 2400 – 2700 fps. No issue there using cup and core bullets! You can get bullets from 130 to 225gr. Take bonded bullets 180 – 224gr. or lead-free (Barnes 160 – 200gr, GMX 180gr. or Lutz Moeller 130gr MJG) for the 8 x 68 S because of its superb velocities > 3000 fps like f. ex. 300WM. The 8 x56 R you have written about in your last sentence is an old Mannlicher round from the WW1 and not longer produced. No loss if you ask me. I hope I could help you.

 

[Varberger757]

Yes I know you were not intending to start a debate I like all manner of cartridges and my favorites are probably the smaller ones in 22 and 243 calibers. I just had a 6-284 built and am very excited about putting a lot of powder and bullets through it.

I have never heard of the 7x65R. If it is the same case as the 6.5 x 65 RWS then it is very similar in performance to the 280 Rem and 284 Win, both good cartridges. The 284 Win has the advantage of Lapua brass.

I have two 7 RM's and have shot them for many years. One is burned out and the other will be converted to a 270 Montana which is a wildcat I designed off the 300 Dakota. Not sure what my next 7 will be yet, but probably based off the 338 Lapua. When the Berger 195 EOL comes out, that will be quite a combination.

Interesting to find out the meaning of your "handle" (pseudonym) I didn't realize the 300 WM was so popular in Europe. A good cartridge for sure, but I prefer the beltless versions

Good shooting friend

Yes, many different calibres can be interesting. Personally, I'm a big fan of 7s... as known before and the 8s ('323). I'd like to have an 8 x 68S in my shelf too, someday it'll happen. The 7 x 65R (Brenneke) was introduced in 1930 as rimmed/flanged sister of the famous 7 x 64. The 7 x 65R has a huge reputation and is widely spread among those who use single shot rifles. Single shot rifles have a long history in Europe and big numbers of fans. Interesting for those who like to hunt rabbits, pheasants, etc. and deer at the same time, or the s/s , o/u for the famous driven hunts on large game like wild boars and deer. It's absolutely correct what you wrote about its performance. It's the same level than the lovely 280 Rem has. With bullets up to 150, maybe 160 grs it won't be a problem pushing 3000fps or even more. Good shooting for you too! gun)

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Yes, many different calibres can be interesting. Personally, I'm a big fan of 7s... as known before and the 8s ('323). I'd like to have an 8 x 68S in my shelf too, someday it'll happen. The 7 x 65R (Brenneke) was introduced in 1930 as rimmed/flanged sister of the famous 7 x 64. The 7 x 65R has a huge reputation and is widely spread among those who use single shot rifles. Single shot rifles have a long history in Europe and big numbers of fans. Interesting for those who like to hunt rabbits, pheasants, etc. and deer at the same time, or the s/s , o/u for the famous driven hunts on large game like wild boars and deer. It's absolutely correct what you wrote about its performance. It's the same level than the lovely 280 Rem has. With bullets up to 150, maybe 160 grs it won't be a problem pushing 3000fps or even more. Good shooting for you too! gun)

It's too bad there isn't a better selection of 8mm bullets. That would be a good cal to shoot as well.

I checked Ammoguide and they do not show the rimmed 7 x 65R Brenke. They do have the 7 x 64 Brenke which is not rimmed. I suppose the 7 x 64 is the rimless version which also has a similar capacity to the 280 and 284.

Cheers

 

[Varberger757]

That really astonishes me that you didn't find the 7x 65R in your ammoguide. Wilhelm Brenneke was the inventor of both the 7x64 and its rimmed version 7x65R. The 7 x65R is at least as popular as the older 7x57R, and you''ll find it all over Europe in really outstanding big numbers. Winchester is producing the 7x65R with the 175grs Nosler Partition and Hornady with the 140grs. GMX (bad velocity). I suppose that they are not for sale in the US. You may see how famous and well known this calibre is if big US producers fabricate fab - ammo for it. And all the European producers do!
The choice among good 8 mm bullets here in Europe is almost to big. It looks like to be an American issue, unfortunately. The US market is the most interesting and biggest of them all. A reason could be your own industry which might be not interested in even more products to promote and sell. Just a thought!

 

[MudRunner2005]

I would love to see a beltless 8mm RemMag with some good heavy LR bullets like Berger VLD's or NAB's....I'd probably own one if that was the case. That would be a good LR shooter.