FL sizing shoulder bump question

[Palix-Dog]

View attachment 177940

That's a beauty! Love the coloration.

 

[BountyHunter]

Having firm contact with the shell holder ensures that each case will be sized exactly the same amount. Apparently Whidden doesn't think this is necessary and they're not the only ones. A reloading press is made of steel and iron which are elastic materials. It will flex. So if one case requires more force its going to deflect the press more. My opinion is that with small cases like 308 its not much of an issue. Sizing 300 Win, 338 Lapua, or the fatter WSM cases tends to place a lot more load on the press. If your case lube isn't consistent, or if you're resizing brass from a pressure test and they've expanded differently, you will have variations in your sizing. It can easily be .003" or more in these situations. So if you're trying for a .002" shoulder bump it could be a problem. Redding makes the competition shell holders for this very reason. Shimming the shell holder can also be effective. Since you're sizing a fairly small case and you have the tools to measure I'd just compare a bunch of sized brass. If they're consistent then you're good to go.

No bottoming out on the shellholder means you will take it back to "factory SAAMI" specs. jThat is lawyer proof and for the inexperienced. You will eventually end up with case head separation too in most cases. Hornady for example has two die adjustment videos out. The first is the factory spec one bottoming on the shellholder. The second talks about a turn off then work down until you get the .002 shoulder bump.

 

[el matador]

No bottoming out on the shellholder means you will take it back to "factory SAAMI" specs. jThat is lawyer proof and for the inexperienced. You will eventually end up with case head separation too in most cases. Hornady for example has two die adjustment videos out. The first is the factory spec one bottoming on the shellholder. The second talks about a turn off then work down until you get the .002 shoulder bump.

Hornady is a manufacturer of budget, entry-level reloading equipment. Not a source I'd recommend for precision reloading information (or equipment). You say bottoming out on the shell holder is for "the inexperienced". LOL. Some of the most experienced and skilled shooters in the world use this method with excellent results. I use it with excellent results. I get a very consistent shoulder bump of about .002" each and every time with this method. Your ignorance of advanced reloading techniques is not a valid reason to dismiss good advice given by an experienced reloader. Maybe watch 3 or 4 YouTube videos next time before declaring yourself an expert.

Sammy, that is one beautiful rifle!

 

[ButterBean]

Hornady is a manufacturer of budget, entry-level reloading equipment. Not a source I'd recommend for precision reloading information (or equipment). You say bottoming out on the shell holder is for "the inexperienced". LOL. Some of the most experienced and skilled shooters in the world use this method with excellent results. I use it with excellent results. I get a very consistent shoulder bump of about .002" each and every time with this method. Your ignorance of advanced reloading techniques is not a valid reason to dismiss good advice given by an experienced reloader. Maybe watch 3 or 4 YouTube videos next time before declaring yourself an expert.

Sammy, that is one beautiful rifle!

I will have to disagree, IMO Hornady makes some very fine products as well as Lee, now I suppose I'm a novice entry level ignorant shooter as well ?

 

[el matador]

I will have to disagree, IMO Hornady makes some very fine products as well as Lee, now I suppose I'm ignorant as well ?

Having a different opinion doesn't make you ignorant. If you like their products and they work well for you that's great. I've used a few of their dies in the past and found them to be pretty useless for precision handloading. When a sizing die is .010" under the SAAMI max case dimension it just works the brass too much and makes for a loose fit in the chamber. I prefer to spend a bit more and get tighter tolerances. I've had much better results with Redding, Forster, and Whidden. Some of Hornady's products are great but I won't use anything from them that needs to be very precise.

If you were to say that Hornady is better than any other brand, even though you hadn't actually tried those other brands...that would make you ignorant.

 

[ButterBean]

Having a different opinion doesn't make you ignorant. If you like their products and they work well for you that's great. I've used a few of their dies in the past and found them to be pretty useless for precision handloading. When a sizing die is .010" under the SAAMI max case dimension it just works the brass too much and makes for a loose fit in the chamber. I prefer to spend a bit more and get tighter tolerances. I've had much better results with Redding, Forster, and Whidden. Some of Hornady's products are great but I won't use anything from them that needs to be very precise.

If you were to say that Hornady is better than any other brand, even though you hadn't actually tried those other brands...that would make you ignorant.

Did anyone say they were better ? And I have had and do have all of those brands

 

[el matador]

ButterBean, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Nor do I care. I'm going to take the advice in your signature though. Over and out.

 

[7stw]

View attachment 177940

Ohhhh, that are purdy!

 

[ButterBean]

ButterBean, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Nor do I care. I'm going to take the advice in your signature though. Over and out.

Hornady is a manufacturer of budget, entry-level reloading equipment. Not a source I'd recommend for precision reloading information (or equipment)

This used to be a site where we helped everyone regardless of what they had or used, My first kit was a Lee Challenger Kit that I bought new for $100 and I was proud, I have since upgraded almost all of my equipment since then but I still have it and while I'm obviously not near as experienced or knowledgeable as you I will say that I have loaded just as accurate rounds with the $100 Lee kit as I have with all the Budget Entry Level Equipment that I have now, I've got Redding, Lyman, Forester, Bonanza, RCBS, Lee and Hornady Dies but I personally have found in many instances using my budget equipment the Lee and Hornady dies provide the same results as the others for half the price, Do i like the high dollar stuff ? I sure do, I am a precision reloader? no I'm not, The point I'm getting at is just like most threads on this site anymore your answering a question that wasn't even asked and running down equipment that the OP isn't even using, I meant no offense or disrespect and I'm all for if it works for you more power to ya, I hope you have a good day and if I'm out of line All Apologies To everyone

 

[7stw]

Hornady is a manufacturer of budget, entry-level reloading equipment. Not a source I'd recommend for precision reloading information (or equipment). You say bottoming out on the shell holder is for "the inexperienced". LOL. Some of the most experienced and skilled shooters in the world use this method with excellent results. I use it with excellent results. I get a very consistent shoulder bump of about .002" each and every time with this method. Your ignorance of advanced reloading techniques is not a valid reason to dismiss good advice given by an experienced reloader. Maybe watch 3 or 4 YouTube videos next time before declaring yourself an expert.

Sammy, that is one beautiful rifle!

To quote someone as being "ignorant", is a little of a brash statement, and it also categorizes others who those " inexpensive" dies ignorant also. When I'm at my bench, I have boxes that are red, green, orange, and clear. I've been loading Precision reloaded ammo for close to forty years, and would put some of my ammo alongside many that were loaded with the the high dollar stuff. I'll even say, that I use Lee, supposedly bottom of the barrel stuff, for some things. Guess I'm ignorant too!

 

[BountyHunter]

Hornady is a manufacturer of budget, entry-level reloading equipment. Not a source I'd recommend for precision reloading information (or equipment). You say bottoming out on the shell holder is for "the inexperienced". LOL. Some of the most experienced and skilled shooters in the world use this method with excellent results. I use it with excellent results. I get a very consistent shoulder bump of about .002" each and every time with this method. Your ignorance of advanced reloading techniques is not a valid reason to dismiss good advice given by an experienced reloader. Maybe watch 3 or 4 YouTube videos next time before declaring yourself an expert.

Sammy, that is one beautiful rifle!

Well I see I am going to have to break this down Barney style and I am not the one showing his utter ignorance of precision reloading. You obviously do not understand tolerance stacking and SAAMI specs. You are going to have to put your thinking cap on here. It just so happened that Hornady has a nice video that you might want to watch and follow along to see how to actually do it correctly for precision.

BTW, 30 years LR competition experience, to include state champion, ranked nationally at 1k and have shot a 6" five shot group in mile match with 300 WSM and designed and loaded all kind of wildcats from custom 6 BR to 338/408. I understand precision reloading to be sure. I have been using custom shoulder stub guages made with my reamers for 30 years. And no must precision shooters are using custom/Whidden or Redding dies set up to allow precision bump with or without cam over.

To make it clear lets look at the 6.5 creedmoor to help understand the issue. SAAMI specs give a +- of .010 on the shoulder specs for this cartridge. Others can be as low as .007. In other words IF your chamber is absolutely within SAAMI dimension there can be a .010 shoulder variance from one gun to the other. Ammo has to minimal SAAMI at max dimensions so it will fit ANY gun. Add a worn die reamer and you could add another .002 variance. Did the mftr or gunsmith run the chambering reamer in .002 too long? That is why basic die instructions are written for the novice and are set up for cam over to get back to factory SAAMI specs. Their lawyers make them set the instructions up that way.

Now let's say you take a sizing die and set it down on the shellholder (again you must assume that they are all the correct height but I have seen .008 variance). I have an RCBS rockchucker and I do not care if you are Magilla Gorilla once metal meets metal that is all the compression and shoulder bump you are going to get. Period!!!!! Now IF you are lucky and IF you can actually measure shoulder bump you might be within .002 of the chamber shoulder. You could also in actuality be about .008 or more off. Again, think about it, that is why Redding has the competition shellholders that offer .0010 of adjustments in .002 increments for the guys hung up on shoulder bump or has dies that are a shade too long for correct bump. Keep reloading that same case time after time at that distance and you will eventually get case head separation. Think about this, how is it even possible to get case head separation IF cam over works perfect every time?

There is a reason the top two factory die mftrs (Whidden and Redding) give specific instructions for adjusting the dies for optimal shoulder bump and max case life to back off 1/3-1/2 turn and work your way down. On most dies 1/8 turn is about .009 of actual movement on the shoulder. As for Hornady dies, you might not know it but they actually have competition shooting teams that compete long range and do well with their dies. So not crap dies.

Just to put it to bed finally, we already had the Whidden instructions posted (BTW John Widden is world class champion and LR shooter so pretty sure he knows what he is talking about) and here is a composite of the Redding die instructions.

Cam over is for returning back to factory specs and the novice. Period

 

[Bingoc]

I have primarily been a hunter for some 45 years and have reloaded many calibers but I don't spend a lot of time shooting paper. I doubt that any of my guns have 300 rounds down the pipe. I use an RCBS Rockchucker press and RCBS full length sizing die sets. I have always full length sized the brass, as I did not want to have any additional effort closing the bolt. Therefore, I have only gotten about three reloads before they have to be discarded, especially from the belted magnums, i.e., the 264, 300 Wea., 338 WM etc. As soon as I get that little tell tail frost ring above the belt, I know that the crack has started. I have cut the cases longitudinally to verify the beginning of a crack.
After reading the posts on sizing brass for a number of years, I invested in the Sinclair Bump Gauge instruments and had a good dial caliper and tried to bump the shoulder 0.002 of a 300 Wea. using the RCBS full length die. I adjusted the die to meet the shell holder with no cam over, just gravity and backed it off one turn. Moved the sizing die down to meet the case and completed the stroke with a little resistance. I backed the sizing die up and measured the case. No difference. Moved the die an 1/8 turn and repeated the process and got more resistance. Measured the case and got about 0.001 in. bump. Then I cleaned the case and tried to chamber it, but found that it would not chamber without more pressure than I wanted to apply. I re-lubed the case and moved the sizing die about a 1/16 turn and tried again. I got about 0.003 in. bump, but the case would not chamber. I tried this again after another 1/16 turn and got about 0.004 in. bump, but the case would not chamber. So I got frustrated and went back to my full length sizing routine and insured that the case would chamber. but that reflected a bump of about 0.009 in.
I would sure appreciate and advice on what I am doing wrong. Thanks in advance.

 

[tim_w]

Whats the deal with people being so pugnacious in this thread It just sours the whole thing. Reminds me way too much of....well....never mind. But its sure will have a negative effect on activity of the forum. Serious buzz kill.

 

[SammySTW]

Whats the deal with people being so pugnacious in this thread It just sours the whole thing. Reminds me way too much of....well....never mind. But its sure will have a negative effect on activity of the forum. Serious buzz kill.

I didn't expect this thread to turn into a debate. I just asked a simple question and got simple answers, so thanks to yall for the help. I'm just here to learn new things and try to help someone else if I can. I've mostly used RCBS sizing dies up until this one, and I've always followed the directions to set them up with a little cam over and it has seemed to work fine. But I'm constantly learning, and starting to play with measuring shoulder bump and learning how that works with the FL dies. Thanks for the wisdom everyone