First loads after annealing, no neck tension

[JeffVN]

forget teh sticks they are worthless; you have to remove the casefrom the heat to apply the stick and getting the stick to melt is a pain (at least that was my reaction when i tried them). Get the quickdrying liquid that goes on and dries to a colored paint look. The paint "melts at the set temperature" I agree the Ken Light device is wonderful. I have used it in combination with the tempique liquid to anneal my 7WSM, 308, .260, 284, 6x47 lapua ...and soon my 338 LM Improved brass.

I have dedicated annealing brass that i run through the ken light to see if the flames on my torches are right. When they do what they are supposed to and melt at the proper time, but not too hot, i run my real brass through..... In the context keep the ruined brass but make it clear is only annealing demo somehow. I used magic markes on the base of the brass so that i do not mistake it for my real brass.

Keep at it. The results will be well worth the effort.

 

[Ridge Runner]

well everyone is gonna look at things differently, do things differently even if they think they are doing it just like they saw it done. NOTHING TAKES THE PLACE OF EXPERIENCE! you learn by trial and error, you see the results of your efforts, and they're not always good.
But don't give up, you know now you heated them too much, work with that till you see how to do it right, what works for you, may not work with eveyone else.
My method, I use Mapp gas, I hold the case in my fingers, I put the case to the flame, spin the case as far as I can clockwise with my fingers, then all the way back, pitch it in a bucket of water, I heat them maybe 2 seconds. I anneal every 3 fireings in my 7mm AM, after annealing my MV is real close to 3500 fps.
You do not wanna see a glow, just a color change. when the case starts to get hot in my fingers thats enough.
RR

 

[Buffalobob]

I hope it didn't seem like I was casting stones at Buffalobob.

No, I do not feel that way at all.

The video was there to help. If a lot of people are having trouble with it then I will get Len to pull it down so people are not screwing up their brass.

I ended up with the best groups I've ever had out of the gun with no problems.

I ruined about 100 rounds of brass learning how to neck turn, so some of these things just take doing it wrong a time or two.

 

[nddodd]

Would you all anneal new brass or just wait tell they've been fired two or three times.


Thanks guys for an informative thread,

-Nathan

 

[Pdvdh]

forget teh sticks they are worthless; you have to remove the casefrom the heat to apply the stick and getting the stick to melt is a pain (at least that was my reaction when i tried them). Get the quickdrying liquid that goes on and dries to a colored paint look. The paint "melts at the set temperature"

The welders sticks are not easy to use. Brownells sells the liquid that is painted on the case and turns color when the case reaches the correct temperature. Do a few with the painted case shoulders and figure out the time required for the neck-shoulder to reach the proper temperature in 'your' flame. Then just heat the remainder of the cases for the determined length of time - keeping the flame length constant throughout the annealing process.

I was too cheap to buy the liquid color changing paint. The stuff is not cheap. I used the cheapo welders stick, and it was just enough better than worthless to figure out how long to keep the flame applied to my brass cases. I agree the liquid paint applied to the cases is the better way to go.

Welder's temperature sensing sticks - just a little better than worthless.

 

[Eaglet]

Eaglet mentioned don't heat the case neck/shoulder of the cases above 750F. The ideal annealing temperature is about 660-670F. The cases have already been overheated by the time they begin to glow red, based on my research and understanding. Over-anneal and the brass turns to a charred soft mush. Useless. Toss'em in the trash. Under-anneal and the brass is never softened up.

From 6mmBR:
If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).
The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:
1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.
2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.
3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.
4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.

From Varmint Al Website:
When the neck just becomes a visible dull red (about 750°F), I drop the case in the bowl of water. The neck and most of the shoulder are now stress free in an annealed condition and my case neck is in the "like new" condition. Do not anneal the necks in a lighted room. You won't be able to detect the dull red color and by the time you see red, the brass is already too hot. This burns out the zinc, ruining the brass. Caution: Do not anneal any other part of the case. An annealed case head does not have enough strength to support the high gas pressures and would probably rupture. After annealing, I put the cases in a bowl and dry them with a hair drier. Don't get them so hot that you can't pick them up. I blow dry them and wait 30 minutes or so and give them another blow dry. If you are more patient, you can let them air dry overnight.

(I also found this one)
From 24 hrs Camp Fire:
When the brass around the mouth reaches a temperature of about 660° to 665° Fahrenheit (about 350° Celsius, which equals 662° Fahrenheit), its surface becomes light blue — and this is as hot as you want to let it get. If you let the color run too far toward the other end of the case, you can ruin the head by making it too soft. If you let the color on the neck go beyond light blue, and the shine disappears, you're on the thin edge of ruining the case, and you may already have gone too far.
If you let the case get red, it's a goner. Ignore published "expert" (but totally wrong) advice that tells you to heat it red-hot. Squeeze the mouth with pliers, and you'll see how soft it is. Remember two things: shine and light blue. Anything further is too much — and even these, too far below the shoulder, mean too much heat.
But depending on getting the color just right is too loose and iffy to suit me. I prefer and recommend relying on something more dependable than personal color perception. The most reliable case thermometer I know is a 650° or 660° F temperature-sensitive crayon (called a "temp stick," usually). More on this in a bit.

A look to my annealed brass, may not look the greatest but they did shoot awesomely!

 

[Buffalobob]

Would you all anneal new brass or just wait tell they've been fired two or three times.

Cases come from the factory annealed and with suitable softness and do not need to be annealed before use.

After a piece of brass has been stretched and hammered by firing and sizing, it begins to work harden. After it gets to be too hard, the neck will split or the brass will no longer hold a bullet because it is too hard (exactly the same situation as being too soft from over-annealing) .

When to anneal seems to depend upon the brand of brass, the rifle chamber and pressure of the loads and the settings of the dies. For extreme wildcat cartridges you may want to anneal after you have finished fireforming the case being as the shoulder and neck have been worked a lot.

Generally for a 308 case I anneal about once every four firings. It probably could go longer without any problems but it is just what I do.

Annealing is a time versus temperature relationship and you have to get into the correct part of the range for it to be effective.

 

[mo]

I've had this problem before. I took expander button off, and went down on my neck bushing and they worked well.

 

[BillR]

I've used the annealing method with a propane torch for years without a problem "UNTIL" one day when I was doing my .25-06 AI tight neck cases. When I went to seat a bullet the bullet just dropped down in the case. Really scratched my head over that one as I used the same method I had always used.
What I found and what solved the problem was I removed the decaping/sizer rod from my dies and re-sized the case again this way and the problem went away. The ball was dragging on the soft brass and actually expanding the case neck out too much after it had been annealed.
Never had this problem again as I just now re-size and de-prime the cases then anneal them and then remove the rod with the expander ball, resize it again and then I get good neck tension again.
Some of the cases have been annealed as many as 10 times as I anneal those every time to get exactly the same neck tension shot to shot.

 

[Bart B]

In a demonstration for a friend, I took one new Federal .308 Win. case, loaded it with a max charge of powder under a 165-gr. bullet, fired it, then full length resized it in a standard RCBS die whose neck had been lapped out to 2 thousandths smaller than the loaded round's neck diameter. The chamber was a standard SAAMI dimensioned one. Fired case shoulder was set back 2 thousandths each time. Body diameter was reduced about 2 thousandths when sized.

After reloading that case 46 more times before running out of powder, bullet tension during seating remained the same for all 47 seating operations. The only thing that changed was having to trim the case back to 2.000 inch after eight firing and reloading operation. The case shortened a bit less than 1 thousandth when fired then lengthened a bit more than 1 thousandths after full length sizing.

Never annealed the neck. Muzzle velocity spread was about 30 fps about 2650 for all 47 shots. Evidence neck tension was reasonably consistant for all shots. Primers seated with the same force so there was no noticable expansion at the case head.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Bart----what was the total amount of time elapsed for the entire shooting string?

I have found that the "spring back" will change slightly depending on the the time the bullet spends in the case in relation to the condition of the neck and how hard it has become.

 

[Bart B]

Bart----what was the total amount of time elapsed for the entire shooting string? I have found that the "spring back" will change slightly depending on the the time the bullet spends in the case in relation to the condition of the neck and how hard it has become.

Those 47 rounds were fired about 1 minute apart.

Other cases I've reloaded over 20 times with the same tools and process have waited 2 to 3 weeks or more as loaded ammo between shooting them. I've pulled bullets from these cases after they've set around for a couple months or so and the force required to do that's about the same as when the case had been shot and reloaded the first few times. I've not had them sit around for more than 3 months before shooting them. I've been told that after that, the grip on the bullet may loosen up a bit to be noticed at the longer ranges.

Fired cases had about .344" neck diameter from the .345" diameter chamber neck. Those necks were sized down about .010" in the die with a .3335" neck diameter. Case neck diameter with the bullet seated was about .335" with their .0135" average neck wall thickness and a .3082" diameter bullet.

 

[Pdvdh]

In a demonstration for a friend, I took one new Federal .308 Win. case, loaded it with a max charge of powder under a 165-gr. bullet, fired it, then full length resized it in a standard RCBS die whose neck had been lapped out to 2 thousandths smaller than the loaded round's neck diameter. The chamber was a standard SAAMI dimensioned one. Fired case shoulder was set back 2 thousandths each time. Body diameter was reduced about 2 thousandths when sized.

After reloading that case 46 more times before running out of powder, bullet tension during seating remained the same for all 47 seating operations. The only thing that changed was having to trim the case back to 2.000 inch after eight firing and reloading operation. The case shortened a bit less than 1 thousandth when fired then lengthened a bit more than 1 thousandths after full length sizing.

Never annealed the neck. Muzzle velocity spread was about 30 fps about 2650 for all 47 shots. Evidence neck tension was reasonably consistant for all shots. Primers seated with the same force so there was no noticable expansion at the case head.

Can we get you to do the same experiment over again with a die that sizes the neck down 0.010" from the fired case or chamber neck dimension? The extra working of the neck would probably make a difference and result in stiffer neck brass with fewer rounds fired.

 

[Bart B]

phorwath, read post 26 in this thread. It's about sizing fired case necks down about 10 thousandths.

Can't do this test easy any more. My friend who had an underground 100 yard range with reloading benches in the shooting room is gone. His underground range was converted to a wind cellar and storage area by the people who bought his house.