Adikted
Well-Known Member
Early this year I solicited advise on the forum for gear recommendations for a middle/late season Montana Elk/muley hunt. Living in South Carolina I had no idea what I was getting into, all of the hunting I've done has been Southern whitetail. You all came through with some great advise, but with so many opinions coming from so many different parts of the country it was still hard to feel comfortable with my pack list. After 10 months of pondering what ifs and contingencies I ended purchasing WAY more gear than I needed (or wanted to carry). Now that I've actually spent a week in Montana I wanted to post this thread to consolidate the information, share my experience and hopefully save the next man from purchasing (and shipping) all the unneeded stuff I ended up getting.
I went out with my uncle (by marriage) who is a Montana Native and resident. Originally we had discussed going into one of his camps that he and his son in law set in the early season, but some earlier than usual snowfall in the Crazy's snowed his camp in. So, we wound up hunting mostly lower country accessible via road. We tried hiking into higher country 3 of the days but the areas were largely devoid of sign. In retrospect we should have probably pushed harder into the high country but its hard to convince yourself that there's bulls up there when you're looking at herds of 200-300 elk grazing on the private ranches. So with all this in mind, here's my lessons learned, and advise for a flat lander like myself.
Lesson 1: When you're walking, you don't need as many layers as you think you do.
Hunting in South Carolina I never walk very far getting into the stand, so my idea of how much insulation was required when walking in the teens was askew. I purchased UA 2.0 base layers tops and bottoms, UA 3.0 tops, Minus33 230g/m merino bottoms a Minus33 420g/made merino 1/4 zip sweatshirt, an LLbean ultimate big game liner Jacket (I got the Goretex big game Jacket for a shell which I love) , 2 pairs of Cabelas Outfitter Wooltimate pants, and an assortment of UA Barrier and Softer shell stuff most of which never came out of the stuff sacks I packed them in.
I wore none of the 3.0 stuff and spent most of my time sweating in the 2.0. The coldest temp we saw was 13 degrees. That morning I was wearing the Cabelas pants and 2.0 base layers, with my LLBean goretex jacket and liner. 3 minutes into hiking up hill at daylight and I'm dripping sweat. That morning we hiked about 7 miles round trip and climbed from 6500 feet to 8500 feet. My liner jacket ended up in my day pack with my spare set of base layer's I had brought IN CASE I GOT COLD. With the snow being nearly knee deep I didn't want to take my pants off to remove my bottom base layer, the result was being hot all day and coming back to camp dehydrated. If I could do again I would wear the wool pants, with the Gortex parka and liner jacket and keep a single pair of baselayers in my bag for when/if we stopped to glass long enough to get cold.
Lesson 2: Zippered legs on your pants can be a blessing or a curse.
One of the threads I read recommended a GOOD set of snow gaiters. That was sage advise however, I didn't get a good set. Not because I'm cheap, but because it was difficult for me to tell the difference between good ones and bad ones shopping on Amazon. (Snow gaiters aren't something the stores keep here) My bad Gaiters were working ok but lacked a closure at the top to keep the zippers from creeping down. At about hour 2 of pulling the zipper back up every 10 minutes or so, I pulled the zipper clear off. Then started the arduous process of pulling the zipper's on my pants down every so often to try to keep the snow from working its way over the top of my boot. Fortunately, the zippers on my pants are tougher than the ones on my gaiters. As time went on it got harder and harder to get my pants to zip all the way down. (Solved this on day two with Duct tape before leaving camp.) I can't however, completely denounce the zippered legs. Later in the week (once I'd quit wearing the base layers) we were hustling up hill in the afternoon, being able to pull the zippers up to cool my legs down was the ticket!
So my advise is if you're going to have zippers on your legs (gaiters or pants) make sure there's some kind of closure at the end to keep it from working its way open. Also, if your hunting in snow deeper than your ankle go ahead and wrap the bottom of your pants with duct tape.
Lesson 3: Make sure your snow boots have a Knobby tread.
My uncle is taller than I, but of a comparable weight. I'd walk in areas where he climbed with a sure foot and wind up on my butt or face (day 3). The extra time energy you spend trying to drag yourself back up onto your feet really takes a toll on you by the end of the day. When we got back into the cabin that night I took a second look at my rubber boots, the tread is simply too shallow, I'm seriously considering carrying some kind of ice cleats or crampon next time, or maybe just tossing the boots and buying a better set.
Lesson 4: TREKKING POLES
I started out not carrying mine because I didn't think I'd be able to manage them while carrying my rifle. Even one makes a huge difference keeping yourself on your feet especially when descending.
Lesson 5: Seriously only carry what you need. (but carry what you need)
My first morning going into the higher country (3rd hunting day) I was carrying a pack that weighed about 25 lbs on top of my binos and rifle. I was carrying game bags, first aid kit, a fire starter and survival kit, spare batteries and some other stuff not important enough for me to remember. 2 miles and 1500 feet later I tied that pack to a tree on the trail with an orange hat hooked to it. I regularly trained with 40 lbs packs hiking about 8 miles with 1700 ft of accent topping out at 3200 ft in the blue ridge. (the only trail within day trip distance of my house) and I can hike that every day of the week without an issue. I wasn't anywhere near prepared to carry 40 lbs at 8000 feet through calf and knee deep snow, by mid day I had all but quit hunting and was merely enduring. I got so nauseated that I couldn't eat lunch, needless to say I severely underestimated the altitude. We covered 7 miles round trip that day topping out at 8500' but didn't see any elk sign.
On day 2 in the high country (4th day hunting) I stripped my gear down to an emergency Blanket, fire starter, drag rope, skinning knife, and the things I actually needed to hunt Rifle, bino's, gps, water, etc. At that weight I could go all day even with the elevation (I was getting better acclaimed at this point) we walked two miles up, climbed up to 7500' to glass but once again not a single elk track was found. At that point we decided to head down back down to the valley.
On day 5, we had headed back down to the valley floor where we were at least seeing elk (on private land), I realized all of the stuff I was carrying would fit in my jacket and pants, (my jacket has a huge pocket in the back) and I quit carrying the backpack. My frame pack weighs nearly 8 lbs all by itself, I just couldn't justify it hunting where we were, especially with three of us being out there.
My buddy was carrying an Under armour Ridge reaper pack, it seemed to have a pretty good balance of light weight and carrying ability I'm going to look for something similar for next year.
Lesson 6: Wool For snow.
My wool pants were awesome for snow once I got the zipper issue sorted out. I sat in on a hillside for 3 hours one afternoon in a 20 mph wind at 25 degrees, (day 7), it snowed about 3" on top of the 8" that was already on the ground. I tucked myself into a small Fir for shelter and cover while we waited for the bulls we'd seen the evening before to come down. My legs never got cold (chest and arms were a different story). The wool pants seem heavy when you put them on, but don't seem to get any heavier when they get damp.
I also bought a relatively inexpensive set of 100% wool knit gloves with a thinsulate liner. The only time they got cold was when I took my hands out of them, no matter how wet they got.
Lesson 7: DWR finish doesn't make Gore Tex.
My UA pants were great until I had to sit or kneel in the snow wearing them. Then wetness crept through the fabric and I really noticed the wind making me cold.
The exception to this was my UA Barrier Bib, I sat right down in the snow wearing that for about an hour and it kept me dry and the wind wasn't noticeable (day 6). I bought it large expecting to wear many layers beneath it though so at the insulation level I ended up being comfortable with it was cumbersome.
Advice : If your going to wear a non wool shell in the snow make sure its truly waterproof (and therefore windproof). Buy one good pair of Gore Tex, or similar material pant, and wear it every day if need be, instead of 3 good DWR treated pants rotating days to get a dry pair.
Lesson 8: If you can give yourself time for a Mulligan.
I scheduled this hunt late in the season to work around when my uncle and friend could take vacation. Never having hunted elk I wanted to go out with someone experienced for the first time. The two people I know in person in Montana (not through the forum) both told me the worse thing is trying to hunt elk in warm weather The second week of November seemed like a better bet in that respects.
This backfired on me when they had a ton of early season snow. My uncles camp where his wall tent was set up was inaccessible except by snow shoe or snowmobile ( they're renting snowmobiles to get it out. It had snowed so hard in the back country that Fwp closed the Gardiner hunt unit early because the bull harvest quintupled, as elk came pouring in from the back country
There isn't a whole lot of public land down I the valleys you have a few 640 acre public areas (1 square mile) surrounded by private ranch land that's hunted by professional outfitters. We literally saw thousands of elk on the private ranches but one has to mess up and cross the road to be legal. Every vantage point on the public sections would have from 5 to ten trucks parked on it. When we finally did get on some elk it didn't take long for the other hunters on the roads to figure it out, then the situation became chaotic. We tried one more time on day 8 to get up above the rest of the crowds but once again we didn't cut a single track or see a single animal, just lots of knee deep snow an an extremely icy trail. In a stroke of irony one of my Uncles friends killed a 6x6 in the valley below us, we were about 2 miles and 1000 feet above him when he pulled the trigger. I'm adding a picture we took of a herd through the binoculars. You can't see all of the animals but we estimated 400-500 in that one herd alone.
It was an experience that I don't care to repeat. Needless to say I'm planning next years trip earlier in the season. Since I'm planning to drive I'll have better flexibility so I can hold off if it's real hot. If I was flying out again I would go early in the season and give myself time to make a second trip if the weather was too hot. With all of the expense involved in this hunt an extra airfare would have been insignificant.
Lesson 9: Unless you're independently wealthy, drive.
I ended my hunt without a Bull but was rewarded for my efforts with a big muley (on the evening of the last day). I had shipped most of my gear ahead via fed ex in a large cooler and a large box. By the time I get my muley back from the processor I will have spent 2000 dollars getting myself, my gear, and my game through this hunt. As I get paid less than a 1000 dollars a day , I'll be taking two extra days off next year and driving out and back. On a side note, United Airlines charges $150 dollars for a third bag. You won't find that out until you're standing at the gate if their website is down as it was when I tried to check.
Summary:
As far as clothing is concerned here's what I'm planning to take for next years hunt.
2 Minus 33 230g/m base layer bottoms 2 UA 2.0 base layer tops
1 Gore Tex pant (LLBean or Sitka, undecided)
1 wool pants(sticking with the Cabelas till they wear out) then I think I'm going to try the lighter weight Woolrich because I think they will be a happy medium and work well as an intermediate layer beneath a shell pant.
1 Minus 33 420g/m sweatshirt
1 LLBean Gore Tex parka with liner jacket
4 pairs Merino wool socks (medium cushion)
1 pair Gore Tex hiking boots
1 Stormy Kromer Hat
1 pair Knit wool lined gloves
1 Pair of GOOD snow gaiters
1 wind proof neck gaiter
1 Deluth trading suspenders
1 Pair cold weather rubber snow boots (I have Muck Arctic sports but I haven't decided if I'm going to try them with some kind of ice cleat or try to find a pair with better tread, kinda leaning towards replacement now that I've had a lot of time to ponder it.
I really believe I can get down close to zero degrees with some combination of the clothes above in relative comfort.
As far as gear I wouldn't do this hunt again with out, not including stuff for camping.
Rifle (obviously)
Good flip up scope caps
Electrical tape (for muzzle cover and tagging game)
Trekking Poles
Binoculars 10x-15x w/harness
GPS unit
Canteen of some sort
Good Skinning knife
Large emergency blanket
25' of Polypropylene rope (for dragging or hanging game)
Good magnesium fire starter
Butane lighter (magnesium is a pain in butt if its not necessary)
Game bags (left at camp)
Frame pack for packing meat out (also left at camp)
A light weight day pack.
Duct tape (left at camp)
Everything else I brought ended up staying in the truck or back at camp.
Things I'm considering picking up:
Some form of ice cleat, leaning towards the Katahoola micro spikes.
A sling for my rifle that lets me keep my hands free to use trekking poles while still letting me deploy the rifle quickly
Some kind of ammo holder to keep spare cartridges on my belt or rifle
View attachment 86580
I went out with my uncle (by marriage) who is a Montana Native and resident. Originally we had discussed going into one of his camps that he and his son in law set in the early season, but some earlier than usual snowfall in the Crazy's snowed his camp in. So, we wound up hunting mostly lower country accessible via road. We tried hiking into higher country 3 of the days but the areas were largely devoid of sign. In retrospect we should have probably pushed harder into the high country but its hard to convince yourself that there's bulls up there when you're looking at herds of 200-300 elk grazing on the private ranches. So with all this in mind, here's my lessons learned, and advise for a flat lander like myself.
Lesson 1: When you're walking, you don't need as many layers as you think you do.
Hunting in South Carolina I never walk very far getting into the stand, so my idea of how much insulation was required when walking in the teens was askew. I purchased UA 2.0 base layers tops and bottoms, UA 3.0 tops, Minus33 230g/m merino bottoms a Minus33 420g/made merino 1/4 zip sweatshirt, an LLbean ultimate big game liner Jacket (I got the Goretex big game Jacket for a shell which I love) , 2 pairs of Cabelas Outfitter Wooltimate pants, and an assortment of UA Barrier and Softer shell stuff most of which never came out of the stuff sacks I packed them in.
I wore none of the 3.0 stuff and spent most of my time sweating in the 2.0. The coldest temp we saw was 13 degrees. That morning I was wearing the Cabelas pants and 2.0 base layers, with my LLBean goretex jacket and liner. 3 minutes into hiking up hill at daylight and I'm dripping sweat. That morning we hiked about 7 miles round trip and climbed from 6500 feet to 8500 feet. My liner jacket ended up in my day pack with my spare set of base layer's I had brought IN CASE I GOT COLD. With the snow being nearly knee deep I didn't want to take my pants off to remove my bottom base layer, the result was being hot all day and coming back to camp dehydrated. If I could do again I would wear the wool pants, with the Gortex parka and liner jacket and keep a single pair of baselayers in my bag for when/if we stopped to glass long enough to get cold.
Lesson 2: Zippered legs on your pants can be a blessing or a curse.
One of the threads I read recommended a GOOD set of snow gaiters. That was sage advise however, I didn't get a good set. Not because I'm cheap, but because it was difficult for me to tell the difference between good ones and bad ones shopping on Amazon. (Snow gaiters aren't something the stores keep here) My bad Gaiters were working ok but lacked a closure at the top to keep the zippers from creeping down. At about hour 2 of pulling the zipper back up every 10 minutes or so, I pulled the zipper clear off. Then started the arduous process of pulling the zipper's on my pants down every so often to try to keep the snow from working its way over the top of my boot. Fortunately, the zippers on my pants are tougher than the ones on my gaiters. As time went on it got harder and harder to get my pants to zip all the way down. (Solved this on day two with Duct tape before leaving camp.) I can't however, completely denounce the zippered legs. Later in the week (once I'd quit wearing the base layers) we were hustling up hill in the afternoon, being able to pull the zippers up to cool my legs down was the ticket!
So my advise is if you're going to have zippers on your legs (gaiters or pants) make sure there's some kind of closure at the end to keep it from working its way open. Also, if your hunting in snow deeper than your ankle go ahead and wrap the bottom of your pants with duct tape.
Lesson 3: Make sure your snow boots have a Knobby tread.
My uncle is taller than I, but of a comparable weight. I'd walk in areas where he climbed with a sure foot and wind up on my butt or face (day 3). The extra time energy you spend trying to drag yourself back up onto your feet really takes a toll on you by the end of the day. When we got back into the cabin that night I took a second look at my rubber boots, the tread is simply too shallow, I'm seriously considering carrying some kind of ice cleats or crampon next time, or maybe just tossing the boots and buying a better set.
Lesson 4: TREKKING POLES
I started out not carrying mine because I didn't think I'd be able to manage them while carrying my rifle. Even one makes a huge difference keeping yourself on your feet especially when descending.
Lesson 5: Seriously only carry what you need. (but carry what you need)
My first morning going into the higher country (3rd hunting day) I was carrying a pack that weighed about 25 lbs on top of my binos and rifle. I was carrying game bags, first aid kit, a fire starter and survival kit, spare batteries and some other stuff not important enough for me to remember. 2 miles and 1500 feet later I tied that pack to a tree on the trail with an orange hat hooked to it. I regularly trained with 40 lbs packs hiking about 8 miles with 1700 ft of accent topping out at 3200 ft in the blue ridge. (the only trail within day trip distance of my house) and I can hike that every day of the week without an issue. I wasn't anywhere near prepared to carry 40 lbs at 8000 feet through calf and knee deep snow, by mid day I had all but quit hunting and was merely enduring. I got so nauseated that I couldn't eat lunch, needless to say I severely underestimated the altitude. We covered 7 miles round trip that day topping out at 8500' but didn't see any elk sign.
On day 2 in the high country (4th day hunting) I stripped my gear down to an emergency Blanket, fire starter, drag rope, skinning knife, and the things I actually needed to hunt Rifle, bino's, gps, water, etc. At that weight I could go all day even with the elevation (I was getting better acclaimed at this point) we walked two miles up, climbed up to 7500' to glass but once again not a single elk track was found. At that point we decided to head down back down to the valley.
On day 5, we had headed back down to the valley floor where we were at least seeing elk (on private land), I realized all of the stuff I was carrying would fit in my jacket and pants, (my jacket has a huge pocket in the back) and I quit carrying the backpack. My frame pack weighs nearly 8 lbs all by itself, I just couldn't justify it hunting where we were, especially with three of us being out there.
My buddy was carrying an Under armour Ridge reaper pack, it seemed to have a pretty good balance of light weight and carrying ability I'm going to look for something similar for next year.
Lesson 6: Wool For snow.
My wool pants were awesome for snow once I got the zipper issue sorted out. I sat in on a hillside for 3 hours one afternoon in a 20 mph wind at 25 degrees, (day 7), it snowed about 3" on top of the 8" that was already on the ground. I tucked myself into a small Fir for shelter and cover while we waited for the bulls we'd seen the evening before to come down. My legs never got cold (chest and arms were a different story). The wool pants seem heavy when you put them on, but don't seem to get any heavier when they get damp.
I also bought a relatively inexpensive set of 100% wool knit gloves with a thinsulate liner. The only time they got cold was when I took my hands out of them, no matter how wet they got.
Lesson 7: DWR finish doesn't make Gore Tex.
My UA pants were great until I had to sit or kneel in the snow wearing them. Then wetness crept through the fabric and I really noticed the wind making me cold.
The exception to this was my UA Barrier Bib, I sat right down in the snow wearing that for about an hour and it kept me dry and the wind wasn't noticeable (day 6). I bought it large expecting to wear many layers beneath it though so at the insulation level I ended up being comfortable with it was cumbersome.
Advice : If your going to wear a non wool shell in the snow make sure its truly waterproof (and therefore windproof). Buy one good pair of Gore Tex, or similar material pant, and wear it every day if need be, instead of 3 good DWR treated pants rotating days to get a dry pair.
Lesson 8: If you can give yourself time for a Mulligan.
I scheduled this hunt late in the season to work around when my uncle and friend could take vacation. Never having hunted elk I wanted to go out with someone experienced for the first time. The two people I know in person in Montana (not through the forum) both told me the worse thing is trying to hunt elk in warm weather The second week of November seemed like a better bet in that respects.
This backfired on me when they had a ton of early season snow. My uncles camp where his wall tent was set up was inaccessible except by snow shoe or snowmobile ( they're renting snowmobiles to get it out. It had snowed so hard in the back country that Fwp closed the Gardiner hunt unit early because the bull harvest quintupled, as elk came pouring in from the back country
There isn't a whole lot of public land down I the valleys you have a few 640 acre public areas (1 square mile) surrounded by private ranch land that's hunted by professional outfitters. We literally saw thousands of elk on the private ranches but one has to mess up and cross the road to be legal. Every vantage point on the public sections would have from 5 to ten trucks parked on it. When we finally did get on some elk it didn't take long for the other hunters on the roads to figure it out, then the situation became chaotic. We tried one more time on day 8 to get up above the rest of the crowds but once again we didn't cut a single track or see a single animal, just lots of knee deep snow an an extremely icy trail. In a stroke of irony one of my Uncles friends killed a 6x6 in the valley below us, we were about 2 miles and 1000 feet above him when he pulled the trigger. I'm adding a picture we took of a herd through the binoculars. You can't see all of the animals but we estimated 400-500 in that one herd alone.
It was an experience that I don't care to repeat. Needless to say I'm planning next years trip earlier in the season. Since I'm planning to drive I'll have better flexibility so I can hold off if it's real hot. If I was flying out again I would go early in the season and give myself time to make a second trip if the weather was too hot. With all of the expense involved in this hunt an extra airfare would have been insignificant.
Lesson 9: Unless you're independently wealthy, drive.
I ended my hunt without a Bull but was rewarded for my efforts with a big muley (on the evening of the last day). I had shipped most of my gear ahead via fed ex in a large cooler and a large box. By the time I get my muley back from the processor I will have spent 2000 dollars getting myself, my gear, and my game through this hunt. As I get paid less than a 1000 dollars a day , I'll be taking two extra days off next year and driving out and back. On a side note, United Airlines charges $150 dollars for a third bag. You won't find that out until you're standing at the gate if their website is down as it was when I tried to check.
Summary:
As far as clothing is concerned here's what I'm planning to take for next years hunt.
2 Minus 33 230g/m base layer bottoms 2 UA 2.0 base layer tops
1 Gore Tex pant (LLBean or Sitka, undecided)
1 wool pants(sticking with the Cabelas till they wear out) then I think I'm going to try the lighter weight Woolrich because I think they will be a happy medium and work well as an intermediate layer beneath a shell pant.
1 Minus 33 420g/m sweatshirt
1 LLBean Gore Tex parka with liner jacket
4 pairs Merino wool socks (medium cushion)
1 pair Gore Tex hiking boots
1 Stormy Kromer Hat
1 pair Knit wool lined gloves
1 Pair of GOOD snow gaiters
1 wind proof neck gaiter
1 Deluth trading suspenders
1 Pair cold weather rubber snow boots (I have Muck Arctic sports but I haven't decided if I'm going to try them with some kind of ice cleat or try to find a pair with better tread, kinda leaning towards replacement now that I've had a lot of time to ponder it.
I really believe I can get down close to zero degrees with some combination of the clothes above in relative comfort.
As far as gear I wouldn't do this hunt again with out, not including stuff for camping.
Rifle (obviously)
Good flip up scope caps
Electrical tape (for muzzle cover and tagging game)
Trekking Poles
Binoculars 10x-15x w/harness
GPS unit
Canteen of some sort
Good Skinning knife
Large emergency blanket
25' of Polypropylene rope (for dragging or hanging game)
Good magnesium fire starter
Butane lighter (magnesium is a pain in butt if its not necessary)
Game bags (left at camp)
Frame pack for packing meat out (also left at camp)
A light weight day pack.
Duct tape (left at camp)
Everything else I brought ended up staying in the truck or back at camp.
Things I'm considering picking up:
Some form of ice cleat, leaning towards the Katahoola micro spikes.
A sling for my rifle that lets me keep my hands free to use trekking poles while still letting me deploy the rifle quickly
Some kind of ammo holder to keep spare cartridges on my belt or rifle
View attachment 86580
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To me it's all about proper layering, you do not want to sweat when it is cold. When I am on a hike to the hunting grounds, I normally have the lightest layer I can tolerate and have plenty of layers to add as required especially when I am sitting/no longer on the move. Your body will naturally tell you when you need peel or add a layer.
