FFP scope?

[Hand Skills]

This channel has some good videos comparing different reticles;

 

[Aussie Hunter Steve]

I prefer FFP for just about everything. Those that report the reticle disappearing on low powers probably chose the wrong scope and/or wrong reticle for their purpose. Look for a reticle with heavy outer bars which will assist greatly on lower powers- these bars will then disappear as the scope is zoomed in and the finer precision elements of the reticle take over.

 

[Snowboy]

Well after reviewing all the comments above, here is what I do with my scopes. I was originally taught that keeping the scope on the lowest power level gave you the largest field of view. This is technically true, but is it required? What power scope you have and how you use it is a personal thing based on experience, but more so on the environment you are hunting. In dense timber and cover, iron sights reign superior to any scope. In heavy cover, a scope of any kind is a hindrance, Try to find an exact aiming spot on a deer for example, that is at 15 yards. All you see is a big patch of fur. With irons you have the entire animal to view, as well as knowing exactly where you are aiming. When dealing with scopes we deal with field of view. Lower power scopes have a wider field of view. A 6 - 24 x 50 may have a field of view of around 20 feet at 100 yards, but as power increases the field of view decreases, down to maybe 6 feet at 100 yards. In reality do I really need a 20 foot field of view? Maybe some do, others don't. I've heard complaints that hunters can't find the animal in the scope when it is set to higher settings. This might be true for some, others practice target acquisition with higher scope settings as well as set our scopes appropriately for the area we are hunting. My rifles are all scoped. I have either 6 - 24 x 50 or 5 - 25 x 56 scopes on them. The key is to set the scope to the terrain, as well as practice finding the target at different ranges with different scope settings. Everyone is different. In my case I mostly hunt out in the open. I set my scope to between 8 and 12 power, which gives me a wide enough field of view that acquiring the target is not an issue, and also allows me to either increase or decrease magnification as deemed necessary. There is the theory that you need to bring enough gun to the game hunted. It also follows with scopes. l would rather have a 5 - 25 x 56 and dial things down, than be stuck with a 3 - 9 x 40 wishing I could dial it up more.

The right scope is just as fast as iron sights in heavy brush and the magnification is a bonus if you are looking for antlers. I use a 1-6 power with illumination and it works great in most hunting situations here in the east.

 

[Teri Anne]

The right scope is just as fast as iron sights in heavy brush and the magnification is a bonus if you are looking for antlers. I use a 1-6 power with illumination and it works great in most hunting situations here in the east.

Not here to argue with anyone, to each their own. For those of you who have rifles with scopes, and with iron sights,. Take both rifles out in the backyard (Don't try this in an urban environment. Your neighbors will call the cops, you will be arrested and your firearms taken away under Red Flag Laws) Pick an object at, no more than 30 feet and from a two hand ready carry (If you don't know what that is, check any hunter safety manual) and take aim at that target. Don't just snap up the rifles, take aim and see which one is fastest on target. (with zero parallax included in your scope sight picture) Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Snowboy]

Not here to argue with anyone, to each their own. For those of you who have rifles with scopes, and with iron sights,. Take both rifles out in the backyard (Don't try this in an urban environment. Your neighbors will call the cops, you will be arrested and your firearms taken away under Red Flag Laws) Pick an object at, no more than 30 feet and from a two hand ready carry (If you don't know what that is, check any hunter safety manual) and take aim at that target. Don't just snap up the rifles, take aim and see which one is fastest on target. (with zero parallax included in your scope sight picture) Draw your own conclusions.

Some scopes are better than others for this purpose. Compare apples to apples iron sights means low power scopes foe a proper comparison.

 

[akmtnhnt]

The only reason FFP isn't used near as much in hunting is because there's almost no FFP reticle out there that is designed for hunting. They're all for gamers. And that's where the largest portion of high dollar scope sales come from.

I'd love for there to be a FFP reticle purposed designed for hunting. The SWFA 3-9 milquad is almost right. And for some it might be, I just think you don't need 5 mils of windage for hunting. I don't know anyone shooting animals in 50mph crosswinds. If you bring the thick bars in a lot closer, it's a lot easier to use on low power. The really thick horizontal lines should come in to just over 3 mils and have the stadia just to 3 mils. Which still gets you about 475 yards in that 50mph crosswind with most 308 parent cartridges with moderate BC's.
The other thing that really helps FFP scopes is a lot less multiplier on magnification. Of course a 5-25 is worthless on low power. There's really no purpose in the first 1/4 of that scope. So why have it? A 3x multiplier lets you design the reticle size to be useful throughout the entire magnification range.
Very few people hold for elevation past what's mpbr anyways, so they can get rid of all the vertical stadia to unbusy the reticle. Make it dial reliably and rtz every time.

 

[Teri Anne]

Interesting diagnosis, but some of your comments are not relevant to most hunters, at least in my hunting circle. To start out with I completely agree with you that the FFP reticles could be made to be a lot more visible on the lower power settings. In good light they are visible enough for the average person to see clearly. The rub comes in lower light, especially where the light colored reticle is looking out over snow or, much worse, in foggy conditions. It doesn't much matter whether you have a first or second focal plane in conditions like this. Now to move on away from the visibility of the reticle, let's talk about MOA or MRAD. I, for one, do not know anyone, to include most of the hunters in my shooting club that shoot scopes calibrated in MRAD. MOA is much easier to use without having to have a calculator handy for figuring elevation changes or windage. While I perfer tactical scopes that do allow or easy windage adjustment, I much prefer, as do others when hunting to rely on those tick marks on the reticle that you seem to despise for calculations on the fly. I also, as do many prefer the higher magnification scopes to low power or fixed magnification models. My preference these days is the Vortex Strike Eagle 5 - 25 x 56, first focal plane with the EBR-7C MOA reticle. It allows for fast target acquisition at lower power settings with the ability to zoom into the target at a higher magnification setting for precise shot placement. I usually keep my scope set to either 10x or 12x, which some may think makes it too difficult to find the target. The key here is to practice finding that elusive trophy animal at the higher settings. Once you get used to it, it is just as easy as if down at the bottom of the magnification range. It also makes the reticle more visible than at lower settings. If that is all that bothers you simply turn on the illumination and now the reticle, or in some cases dot, becomes visible even at the lowest magnification settings.


The last thing that I want to touch on is the comment on the 50 MPH crosswind. I am certainly not familiar with your hunting area, nor are you mine. I have found over the years that big game has a tendency to bed down when the wind is blowing at 50 MPH, I much prefer, like you to stay in the cabin with friends sipping a favorite fermented beverage and telling hunting/war stories from the past. In my old age I find it much more satisfying to be in here, warm, safe and sound while wishing I was out there, rather than being out there and wondering why I am out here in these conditions, wishing I was back at the cabin throwing another log on the fire and refilling my glass or popping another top, the turning to the others and saying, "Hey! remember way back when ............

 

[akmtnhnt]

The last thing that I want to touch on is the comment on the 50 MPH crosswind. I am certainly not familiar with your hunting area, nor are you mine. I have found over the years that big game has a tendency to bed down when the wind is blowing at 50 MPH, I much prefer, like you to stay in the cabin with friends sipping a favorite fermented beverage and telling hunting/war stories from the past. In my old age I find it much more satisfying to be in here, warm, safe and sound while wishing I was out there, rather than being out there and wondering why I am out here in these conditions, wishing I was back at the cabin throwing another log on the fire and refilling my glass or popping another top, the turning to the others and saying, "Hey! remember way back when ............

As does just about everyone. I've never even heard of someone taking a shot on game in a wind like that.
That's why I say the amount of wind stadia on most reticles is ridiculous. All these scopes with 5+mils or 15+moa of wind are ridiculous. The amount of wind you need for that holdover is in excess of 50mph at 500y. No one is taking that shot.

Here's a 308win with a 150gr sst in a 50mph crosswind.

5.3Mil(17.8MOA) at 500y. Why? Who actually needs that?
In a 25mph crosswind it's 5.3mil to 800y. Who is shooting at animals at 800y in a 25mph crosswind?

3 mils(10.3moa) is more than enough wind hold stadia. Then they can bring the large crosshair bars in much closer to the center, which makes the FFP scope on lower power a LOT easier to use.

A lot of these FFP scopes have 20+ moa, some even have stadia to 100MOA in wind. You would need a 100mph crosswind shooting to 1000y to need that with that 150gr 308 sst, not exactly a super fast high bc loading. It's so stupid it's funny.

 

[Sealesniper]

I would borrow one and shoot it before I switched to one. I began my shooting career with SFP and have tried FFP 3 times. I have sold all of those scopes. The reason is my eyes are not what they used to be and at low power I cant see the reticle well enough to feel secure in the shot. Also at lower power seeing windage marks or hold over marks is not possible with my eyes. I use a range finder, so no need to range with the reticle. Also, when possible I set my cell phone on video and lay beside window to video the shot. That way I can play it back and also see if and where the game animal ran.

 

[comfisherman]

Akmtnhnt, your making me feel less alone on reticle frustrations. Figure the mega windhold options are for that massive group of guys shooting 17 hmrs at 1000..... had a burris that looked good on paper but the goofy reticle has 35 moa of wind age hold and wasn't visible enough use on the lower half the power range. It's on a 1022 now, just in case I need to shoot something in a hurricane...


Your prior post hit the nail on the head, we're certainly getting products aimed at the prs market. Suppose the same happened about 15 years ago when everybody and their brother was pushing out 1x scopes for three gun. The market segment research mush have a huge disparity between the premium ffp hunter market and the prs crowd. Can't fault them for chasing that customer.

Had the opportunity to spend good portions of November shooting and hunting with college buddies in open portions of western states. The current crop of scopes really does suit their shooting, certainly made me understand why they rolled her eyes when I complained about the lack of perfect scope features. Their hunting rifles are identical to their prs guns, just a lighter profile barrel in a hotter 6.5 cartridge with a carbon stock instead of a heavy fill glass. I'd be curios what % of the market that type setup represents as almost every company seems to be trying to capture that segment.


It's probably a double whammy as the last decade the trend has been to ever increasing wider zoom ranges. Might take a few years to convince the 6x, 8x, and 10x erector mfgs to make 3x and 4x scopes.

Seems like at least several companies could get close without a lot of new design. The nxs line with the right reticle and ffp, burris had that xtrii that just needed a better reticle. Heck march has scopes with the right physical size, if they have the zoom range and put a good usable reticle they would have gold

 

[Snowboy]

Interesting diagnosis, but some of your comments are not relevant to most hunters, at least in my hunting circle. To start out with I completely agree with you that the FFP reticles could be made to be a lot more visible on the lower power settings. In good light they are visible enough for the average person to see clearly. The rub comes in lower light, especially where the light colored reticle is looking out over snow or, much worse, in foggy conditions. It doesn't much matter whether you have a first or second focal plane in conditions like this. Now to move on away from the visibility of the reticle, let's talk about MOA or MRAD. I, for one, do not know anyone, to include most of the hunters in my shooting club that shoot scopes calibrated in MRAD. MOA is much easier to use without having to have a calculator handy for figuring elevation changes or windage. While I perfer tactical scopes that do allow or easy windage adjustment, I much prefer, as do others when hunting to rely on those tick marks on the reticle that you seem to despise for calculations on the fly. I also, as do many prefer the higher magnification scopes to low power or fixed magnification models. My preference these days is the Vortex Strike Eagle 5 - 25 x 56, first focal plane with the EBR-7C MOA reticle. It allows for fast target acquisition at lower power settings with the ability to zoom into the target at a higher magnification setting for precise shot placement. I usually keep my scope set to either 10x or 12x, which some may think makes it too difficult to find the target. The key here is to practice finding that elusive trophy animal at the higher settings. Once you get used to it, it is just as easy as if down at the bottom of the magnification range. It also makes the reticle more visible than at lower settings. If that is all that bothers you simply turn on the illumination and now the reticle, or in some cases dot, becomes visible even at the lowest magnification settings.


The last thing that I want to touch on is the comment on the 50 MPH crosswind. I am certainly not familiar with your hunting area, nor are you mine. I have found over the years that big game has a tendency to bed down when the wind is blowing at 50 MPH, I much prefer, like you to stay in the cabin with friends sipping a favorite fermented beverage and telling hunting/war stories from the past. In my old age I find it much more satisfying to be in here, warm, safe and sound while wishing I was out there, rather than being out there and wondering why I am out here in these conditions, wishing I was back at the cabin throwing another log on the fire and refilling my glass or popping another top, the turning to the others and saying, "Hey! remember way back when ............

Cabin time is precious for the Social time together. The older I get the more I appreciate it.

 

[akmtnhnt]

Akmtnhnt, your making me feel less alone on reticle frustrations. Figure the mega windhold options are for that massive group of guys shooting 17 hmrs at 1000..... had a burris that looked good on paper but the goofy reticle has 35 moa of wind age hold and wasn't visible enough use on the lower half the power range. It's on a 1022 now, just in case I need to shoot something in a hurricane...


Your prior post hit the nail on the head, we're certainly getting products aimed at the prs market. Suppose the same happened about 15 years ago when everybody and their brother was pushing out 1x scopes for three gun. The market segment research mush have a huge disparity between the premium ffp hunter market and the prs crowd. Can't fault them for chasing that customer.

Had the opportunity to spend good portions of November shooting and hunting with college buddies in open portions of western states. The current crop of scopes really does suit their shooting, certainly made me understand why they rolled her eyes when I complained about the lack of perfect scope features. Their hunting rifles are identical to their prs guns, just a lighter profile barrel in a hotter 6.5 cartridge with a carbon stock instead of a heavy fill glass. I'd be curios what % of the market that type setup represents as almost every company seems to be trying to capture that segment.


It's probably a double whammy as the last decade the trend has been to ever increasing wider zoom ranges. Might take a few years to convince the 6x, 8x, and 10x erector mfgs to make 3x and 4x scopes.

Seems like at least several companies could get close without a lot of new design. The nxs line with the right reticle and ffp, burris had that xtrii that just needed a better reticle. Heck march has scopes with the right physical size, if they have the zoom range and put a good usable reticle they would have gold

Even on those western hunts where lets say you're shooting at pronghorn at 800y... are they doing it in 25-50mph of wind? I don't see how the prs scopes are useful at all at any range anywhere for hunting.
Also with the mega zoom, unless they're shooting a 10lb 223, it's about impossible to spot your own shots. If you can't do that in a hunting situation, you have the wrong combo of everything.

 

[Snowboy]

As does just about everyone. I've never even heard of someone taking a shot on game in a wind like that.
That's why I say the amount of wind stadia on most reticles is ridiculous. All these scopes with 5+mils or 15+moa of wind are ridiculous. The amount of wind you need for that holdover is in excess of 50mph at 500y. No one is taking that shot.

Here's a 308win with a 150gr sst in a 50mph crosswind.
View attachment 626472
5.3Mil(17.8MOA) at 500y. Why? Who actually needs that?
In a 25mph crosswind it's 5.3mil to 800y. Who is shooting at animals at 800y in a 25mph crosswind?

3 mils(10.3moa) is more than enough wind hold stadia. Then they can bring the large crosshair bars in much closer to the center, which makes the FFP scope on lower power a LOT easier to use.

A lot of these FFP scopes have 20+ moa, some even have stadia to 100MOA in wind. You would need a 100mph crosswind shooting to 1000y to need that with that 150gr 308 sst, not exactly a super fast high bc loading. It's so stupid it's funny.

I have shot several big game animals in 30+ mph crosswinds and with a sfp scope. The key is knowing your cartridge and actually shooting it in these conditions.

 

[akmtnhnt]

I have shot several big game animals in 30+ mph crosswinds and with a sfp scope. The key is knowing your cartridge and actually shooting it in these conditions.

At 800+ yards?

I'd love to see someone hit a 2MOA target at 800yd in a 30mph wind with a cold bore shot. That's some world class shooting.
I've never seen a wind that strong be anywhere near consistent, it's more like 25 gusting 35 or 40, and areas of 0 due to terrain and trees over 800y.