FFP is the way to go for those quick 300-500 yard shots, neil or squat judge and shoot. I feel much more confident knowing I have a hold over options on all settings. Unfortunatly most of my scope are SFP so I have to pay big time attention.
FFP ro SFP Vortex PST
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MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Just for the sake of discussion, let's pursue this a little farther... Why isn't the SFP good for a quick holdover shot at 300-500 yds? Maybe give an example?
Jon A
Well-Known Member
Yeah, those of us shooting heavy, high BC bullets for long range wind drift don't have quite the "laser flat" trajectory as those shooting little varmint bullets. 
I see no value in guesstimating inches of holdover when I can precisely hold the correct amount. Even if I leave the scope on 6X.
I see no value in guesstimating inches of holdover when I can precisely hold the correct amount. Even if I leave the scope on 6X.
Good
Well-Known Member
A plus for the SFP-
Bought a new to me 7 Rem Mag in Savage 110 the other day and had a chance to go out and shoot it yesterday. Bought a cheap box of Win ammo for the brass and sighted her in at 100. ES was around 140 and SD was like 43. After getting her sighted in, somewhat, I shot for the 500yd gong.
The gong is approximately 2' in diameter. I couldn't get one gong in the reticle between the post and crosshair, so I dialed the power back to where I could get two gongs in the space. This happened to be 8x. The ballistics program said 42", my post to hair was approximately 48", so I just held post on. Ding. Then, using the same info, the 750yd plate is 18"x21" and the ballistics program said around 120+ inches which is around 10'. Post to post is 8' so I added another two and missed just to the right, but elevation was center. I missed my streamers on my target at 100 saying the breeze had picked up. Loaded my last round and ding! $199 Savage package gun and cheapo Win ammo shooting 750... and now I know, 8x with this cheapo Simmons scope, post to hair is 4'.
Of course, the ballistics program also says MOA, so it would've been even easier to keep magnification on max and dial or hold MOA had it been a reticle for it, or FFP on any power...
Bought a new to me 7 Rem Mag in Savage 110 the other day and had a chance to go out and shoot it yesterday. Bought a cheap box of Win ammo for the brass and sighted her in at 100. ES was around 140 and SD was like 43. After getting her sighted in, somewhat, I shot for the 500yd gong.
The gong is approximately 2' in diameter. I couldn't get one gong in the reticle between the post and crosshair, so I dialed the power back to where I could get two gongs in the space. This happened to be 8x. The ballistics program said 42", my post to hair was approximately 48", so I just held post on. Ding. Then, using the same info, the 750yd plate is 18"x21" and the ballistics program said around 120+ inches which is around 10'. Post to post is 8' so I added another two and missed just to the right, but elevation was center. I missed my streamers on my target at 100 saying the breeze had picked up. Loaded my last round and ding! $199 Savage package gun and cheapo Win ammo shooting 750... and now I know, 8x with this cheapo Simmons scope, post to hair is 4'.
Of course, the ballistics program also says MOA, so it would've been even easier to keep magnification on max and dial or hold MOA had it been a reticle for it, or FFP on any power...
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Yeah, those of us shooting heavy, high BC bullets for long range wind drift don't have quite the "laser flat" trajectory as those shooting little varmint bullets.
My bullets will beat your bullets down range and I don't have to waste so much time clicking
Guestimating? Nahhh.... At 400 yds I hold top of back and at 500, I hold about 9" high (if I'm not clicking), easy stuff.
I wonder how many times the FFP has actually saved the day in bagging a critter? As in, the shot wouldn't have been doable with the SFP.
The issue is NOT if it can be done dialing versus using a reticle or SFP versus FFP (or holdover for that matter within reasonable distances depending on the game, cartridge and shooter).
The issue is as I see it is, how do you want to do distance?
Which ways are YOU likely to have less hiccups in the field under pressure of time whether it be hunting or a field match?
The individual answers are not going to be the same.
The issue is as I see it is, how do you want to do distance?
Which ways are YOU likely to have less hiccups in the field under pressure of time whether it be hunting or a field match?
The individual answers are not going to be the same.
Jon A
Well-Known Member
Using a super duper wizbang flat shooting load doesn't make your scope any better. It's simply a crutch covering up the fact you're guessing. You can get away with it a little better a little farther, that's all. If you put out targets of a somewhat challenging size at various odd ranges and shoot against somebody using a reticle you will get killed in both speed and accuracy.
I used my 7-08 with a mild load of 162's quite a bit of the time last season. How would the above work with that? Since the turrets on that early PST turned out to be too easy to turn I actually taped them up to keep them from moving. I would have needed quite a bit of time to dial. In this case the good reticle certainly "saved the day" and allowed me to keep using the rifle.
I carried the rifle with .7 mils dialed in. That's 2.4" high at 100 for a zero around 225 or so. Pretty typical "point and shoot out to 275 yds" as most would use such a rifle. That gave me the following dope (the PST reticle has marks every ½ Mil).
300 ½ Mil
350 1
400 1 ½
450 2
500 2 ½
550 3
Those were all within about an inch and a half. Very easy to memorize. Very easy to hold precisely with. Very easy to interpolate between marks for odd yardages. And very fast.
I can be on the rifle, with the crosshairs on the target, finger on the trigger, and when you yell out a yardage I can move it to the appropriate hold and press the trigger in the blink of an eye. There's nothing as fast as using the reticle in a situation like that. And for anything farther I'd have to refer to my drop chart (only so I didn't try and memorize too much) and either hold the reticle or undo the tape and dial.
3 Mils at 550 is about 5 feet. And I could very quickly point and shoot and be within an inch or two. Compared with holding over the animals back some guessed amount….there is no comparison.
And before you ask, the 4-16 PST doesn't have the greatest glass in the world. On a gloomy day at the end of shooting light, you don't want to have to crank it up to 16X. Being able to crank it up until it goes black, then back off a bit for the best view is nice to be able to do. Even 500 yds is no problem on a deer at 6X. If you suddenly spot a guy with really big horns and you just want to point and shoot as quickly as possible you might even forget to turn the power up. That's OK, it matters not.
Of course you can say you don't need that type of capability because those types of situations will just never happen to you, or that you'll be stubbornly crank the power up to 16X or 24X no matter how that looks, or that you'll take the time to dial and if that takes too long and the animal goes away then that's OK, he earned it…. It's a free country. If that's how you feel that's fine.
But nobody has ever explained what advantage you gain by not having that capability. It's a tool. Some may never find it useful. My toolbox is full of things my wife doesn't find very useful. That doesn't gain her any sort of advantage when the time comes something needs to be fixed.
So what is the advantage you expect the OP to gain by not having this tool? How has SFP "saved the day" for you?
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
No worries Jon, just stirring the pot a little Like Ernie said, different strokes for different folks. Just thought I would flesh it out a little.
It's not that the SFP has saved the day for me, it's just I think I can put the
$$$ to better use, like maybe some custom bullets, or some good dies, or a higher grade of scope. At least with the PST you don't get a huge jump in price going from SFP to FFP.
Sure with a slower velocity cartridge it would be more helpful for close shots to have FFP. It's just I've always used the holdover method and it's natural for me. My biggest problem before range finders was guessing the range.
Interesting about the PST glass...
Like Ernie said, different strokes for different folks. Just thought I would flesh it out a little.It's not that the SFP has saved the day for me, it's just I think I can put the
$$$ to better use, like maybe some custom bullets, or some good dies, or a higher grade of scope. At least with the PST you don't get a huge jump in price going from SFP to FFP.
Sure with a slower velocity cartridge it would be more helpful for close shots to have FFP. It's just I've always used the holdover method and it's natural for me. My biggest problem before range finders was guessing the range.
Interesting about the PST glass...
Jon A
Well-Known Member
Yeah, as I've said before, for whatever reason, the glass in my 6-24 PST is really good. In the 4-16 it's a bit disappointing. It's still a very good scope for the money but it does not have the best glass.
I guess I am a little confused, even in the SFP PST's you know if you are on 8x instead of 16x the mil distance on your scope is 2X and so on. The manual says the scope is marked this way. Wouldn't that allow you to work just as fast for the most part? Not being a smart a** as I dont have a Vortex scope, had one on order but didn't want to wait and broke down and got a Nightforce. I did go SFP with the mrad reticle it just seems easier to me as I have never owned a FFP scope to begin with but I labored quite a bit with the decision as well.
Seems like the same argument as mil vs MOA. Mils work better for me since radians make sense in my head from past experience and with my limited grasp of trig. I know the concepts/logic are basically the same one just stuck with me better.
Just my $0.02, most of you have far more experience than I do. I am pretty sure I am about minute-of-barn at 800-1K yds, most of you target shoot that range frequently. There is also no such thing as a quick 500yd shot at an animal for me. I Hope to get there one day which is why I am stepping up the scope quality and capabilities.
Seems like the same argument as mil vs MOA. Mils work better for me since radians make sense in my head from past experience and with my limited grasp of trig. I know the concepts/logic are basically the same one just stuck with me better.
Just my $0.02, most of you have far more experience than I do. I am pretty sure I am about minute-of-barn at 800-1K yds
, most of you target shoot that range frequently. There is also no such thing as a quick 500yd shot at an animal for me. I Hope to get there one day which is why I am stepping up the scope quality and capabilities.Jon A
Well-Known Member
Yes, you can do that. For me, 8X is a bit much for an all around general walk around setting so I typically carry the scope set on a lower power than this. So if I need to take my eye out of the scope and look at the scope while I set the power ring to a specific location...why not just dial the turret to a specific location instead? Having to do that sort of ruins the whole thing.
The bigger point is for people who use the reticle much, after using a FFP in all these various scenarios the idea of having to worry about what the power ring is set on just seems silly. Why on earth would I want that? There is no advantage to it, only downsides.
Unlike on the range or even in competition, in hunting you never know when something is going to jump out and you'll need to spring into action. You don't always get the chance to set your scope to the proper power and get ready while you wait for the buzzer to go off. The idea of a Mil always being a Mil or an MOA always being an MOA is so simple and gives such peace of mind if you plan on using the reticle for anything, the better question again is why on earth you'd want it any other way.
