highfinblue
Well-Known Member
Had an old friend that retired from the military, and he lived in the mountains of SE, OK. His favorite three words had to do with the government, and it was not a compliment.
FFL Form 4 not submitted help!
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epoletna
Well-Known Member
I took delivery just last month of a silencer for which I had to wait only 5 months. I think it's kind of aa crap shoot, but I believe the kiosks are probaably more reliable in the initial filing because you at least know the same day you file that your application has been filed. You had to wait more than a year to learn yours had not been filed. You would have your tax stamp in your hand by now if you had gone through a kiosk.
precisionshooter
Well-Known Member
First off, I am not trying to make it sound like it is fine to drop the ball. But mistakes happen, especially if the FFL is new and is following a paper process instead of eForms. I am sure you have screwed up 'some' paperwork at some point of time. So it happens. Also, as much the general people feel the sole goal of ATF is to screw you over, most ATF employees are actually helpful and wants to work with you. Ask your FFL to get hold of his ATF contact and ask him to help expedite. These requests hold more water in case of situations like the photo was rejected, or the fingerprints were not good. If the application was not submitted/received then probably it will be of little help, but it is worth a try.
Disclaimer: I am a FFL and a SOT and I hate silencershop.
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Okanogan
Well-Known Member
A lot of people wouldn't offer such a disclaimer when offering input semi-anonymously. so I applaud you.
precisionshooter
Well-Known Member
Lots of people are recommending Silencershop here. Did you know there is another company that Silencershop is replicating in terms of business model? Starts with an A, ends with a N and trades with a ticker symbol AMZN. No points for guessing it right though.
As an FFL and SOT or as a buyer, the barrier to entry in Silencershop(SS) is really really low. But if you look at the way SS operates, they make SOTs completely dependent on them, takes away almost all earnings and explicitly fucks with brands that they don't carry. They make the process of selling suppressors outside of SS very very very difficult. They actively price fix using their purchase strength. Manufacturers lose on profit, dealers are squeezed dry and consumers do not get the service they deserve. There are very few manufacturers that has told SS to fly kite for trying to squeeze prices. One of them is ThunderBeast and I actively work with them. If you go to a dealer after a sale with questions, the only reason they might help you because SS forces them with their predatory contracts. So the support you generally get is only up to the extent of "fulfilling the contract". As SS completely insulates the dealer from the manufacturer, no relationships are formed. I, for example can pull some strings with manufacturers in exigent circumstances but good luck with that with SS. And that single shot trust they offer is a hot pile of garbage. I have heard many many SOTs with Kiosks say that they are going to stop renewing their SOT because they earn 2, not even 3 figures from an almost 4 figure silencer sale.
I have looked at Silencershop as a FFL/SOT and decided I am better off on my own. I did have to invest in a fingerprint scanner and understand quite a bit about the eForms process. I also set up relationships with National gun trust and a traveling notary. I also set up a corner for taking photographs. Considering I am a software engineer, it was a no brainer for me both financially and technologically, but I understand that it could be hard for independent dealers who does it for a living. You can literally walk into my place with a witness, a driver's license and a dollar note and leave with a control number for buying a suppressor through a trust in 30-45 minutes and I get to keep a little profit and a lot of motivation to help you with after sales. As a customer, you get a promise that I will take care of you with no additional financial commitments in case of any troubles (barring intentional destruction). I even handle the shipping.
Long story short, think before what you wish, because look at what AMZN did to everyone including buyers.
Disclaimer: In case you have missed the idea, I am a FFL/SOT that tells SS to go pound sand.
As an FFL and SOT or as a buyer, the barrier to entry in Silencershop(SS) is really really low. But if you look at the way SS operates, they make SOTs completely dependent on them, takes away almost all earnings and explicitly fucks with brands that they don't carry. They make the process of selling suppressors outside of SS very very very difficult. They actively price fix using their purchase strength. Manufacturers lose on profit, dealers are squeezed dry and consumers do not get the service they deserve. There are very few manufacturers that has told SS to fly kite for trying to squeeze prices. One of them is ThunderBeast and I actively work with them. If you go to a dealer after a sale with questions, the only reason they might help you because SS forces them with their predatory contracts. So the support you generally get is only up to the extent of "fulfilling the contract". As SS completely insulates the dealer from the manufacturer, no relationships are formed. I, for example can pull some strings with manufacturers in exigent circumstances but good luck with that with SS. And that single shot trust they offer is a hot pile of garbage. I have heard many many SOTs with Kiosks say that they are going to stop renewing their SOT because they earn 2, not even 3 figures from an almost 4 figure silencer sale.
I have looked at Silencershop as a FFL/SOT and decided I am better off on my own. I did have to invest in a fingerprint scanner and understand quite a bit about the eForms process. I also set up relationships with National gun trust and a traveling notary. I also set up a corner for taking photographs. Considering I am a software engineer, it was a no brainer for me both financially and technologically, but I understand that it could be hard for independent dealers who does it for a living. You can literally walk into my place with a witness, a driver's license and a dollar note and leave with a control number for buying a suppressor through a trust in 30-45 minutes and I get to keep a little profit and a lot of motivation to help you with after sales. As a customer, you get a promise that I will take care of you with no additional financial commitments in case of any troubles (barring intentional destruction). I even handle the shipping.
Long story short, think before what you wish, because look at what AMZN did to everyone including buyers.
Disclaimer: In case you have missed the idea, I am a FFL/SOT that tells SS to go pound sand.
Brad Quarnberg
Well-Known Member
Obviously, your FFL didn't submit it the first time and even if they thought they did, they should have followed up when they didn't get a control number because that is pretty automatic once it hits ATF.
At this point you're just going to have to wait until it comes in.
when you get it in your hand, then I'd raise holy **ll with the FFL for not getting it done right the first time and wouldn't recommend him to anyone else: unless he makes it right.
Just my plug nickel.
precisionshooter
Well-Known Member
And how do you suggest he/she can make it right?
epoletna
Well-Known Member
Well this is interesting. I did my only silencer purchase through SS, and I thought the dealership was extremely unmotivated. Now I understand why, and I will not recommend them to others. Thanks for this insight. Particularly the way you related their business model to another business which has put a number of smaller retailers out of business. Don't want to be a party to that.
Brad Quarnberg
Well-Known Member
Thats up to the person wronged. If it were me, I'd be asking for a refund of what he charged to fill out the paperwork, do the prints and submit the form at the least.
They made a mistake and the OP had to wait and will now wait longer because the FFL failed to do their job. Not good business or customer service.
When I pay someone for a service, I expect to get what I pay for. He didn't get what he paid for, and it wasn't until he questioned things that the FFL went back and resubmitted (or maybe finally submitted the first time) the paperwork.
Again, my take on it based on the information given.
precisionshooter
Well-Known Member
That is a very fair demand. I typically do not charge anything for filling up paperwork if you buy from me. And I have done exactly two non-sale transfers in 3 years. So this never came to my mind.
Again you are absolutely not wrong, but may I ask for a little empathy for (maybe) a new FFL?
Brad Quarnberg
Well-Known Member
Sure! I'm all about using my local FFL for all my transfers, Form 4's etc. I'm also willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not perfect, we all make mistakes. For me it depends on how we handle the mistake. I for one was taught early in like to own my mistakes and it's served me well. When someone owns their mistakes, I am more than willing to give them a second change and room to grow: it's all in how they handle it.
If I ever need an FFL in WA I'll let you know.
Personal opinion is your FFL messed up and you're out that 14 month wait...
I have a small shop that I do Firearm and silencer transfers. I am a power dealer with silencershop. I don't do enough sales to pay for one of there kiosk machines. So I do fingerprints in ink and mail them to silencershop and they scan them into digital eft's to the customers account so it can be uploaded to the atf website for submission. That works the best for me. I don't have to buy a $5000 machine.
Thank you all for the replies. I believe you answered my question. I am waiting another 9 months at least. I will ask for a refund but he only charged me $20 but certainly never going to use him or recommend. I do believe in forgiveness but he still has not taken ownership of his mistake.
