exploding bullets on impact...is this real or are people guessing?

[doubledoc]

I have read many threads over the years about bullets blowing up on impact and not being a lethal hit with game such as a deer. My questions are as follows:

1. Has anyone ever witnessed a bullet actually blow up on impact with a deer, and not kill the deer? and what I mean by this is you were able to get a second shot on the deer and actually see the first shot in autopsy to confirm and not guess what happened.

2. If your answer to 1 is YES, I just do not get the physics of this so maybe someone can explain it to me. I just don't understand how a 140+ grain object going 2800+FPS can explode, even on bone, and the fragments do not still penetrate to the vitals.

I have used ballistic tips in the past in excess of 3000fps and while they definitely "blew up" inside the deer, they still took the deer out no problem. Ive yet to have one blow up on a shoulder and not had fragments penetrate to lungs and heart.

While not on a deer, I once shot a black bear 3 times in the shoulder with 150gr Rem Cor-Lokt and, after finding and finishing him with a frontal standing chest shot at 20', saw conclusively that NONE of the sholder shots penetrated the chest. All three were small fragments of jacket with occasional lead fragments visible around the humeral head. All three shots were from a .280 Rem at approximately 225 yards.

 

[FEENIX]

Ft/lbs of energy on game is quite misunderstood, and misrepresented. I shot an elk at under 50 yards with a 270 grain bullet @ just under 3K, from a .375 AI. He never flinched, merely starting walking faster....then tipped over.
That same "misunderstood" 3500+ ft/lbs is also absorbed by the shooter. Yes, the rifles weight mitigates it a bit. The shooter rolling with the punch, reduces it somewhat....but physics is physics!

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object!

You, the shooter received the same energy, minus what the rifle absorbed! And, your still here! memtb

Please take no offense but the energy generated off the muzzle is not the same energy with felt recoil.

 

[Buano]

I have read many threads over the years about bullets blowing up on impact and not being a lethal hit with game such as a deer. My questions are as follows:

1. Has anyone ever witnessed a bullet actually blow up on impact with a deer, and not kill the deer? and what I mean by this is you were able to get a second shot on the deer and actually see the first shot in autopsy to confirm and not guess what happened.

2. If your answer to 1 is YES, I just do not get the physics of this so maybe someone can explain it to me. I just don't understand how a 140+ grain object going 2800+FPS can explode, even on bone, and the fragments do not still penetrate to the vitals.

I have used ballistic tips in the past in excess of 3000fps and while they definitely "blew up" inside the deer, they still took the deer out no problem. Ive yet to have one blow up on a shoulder and not had fragments penetrate to lungs and heart.

I have seen this clearly on elk, but not on a whitetail. On elk I had an accubond traveling over 3100 fps destroy a shoulder muscle & not make it to the chest cavity. If not for another shot the elk would have escaped and died days later.

 

[memtb]

Please take no offense but the energy generated off the muzzle is not the same energy with felt recoil.

Not to be argumentative, but, energy is energy. I believe, and maybe incorrectly, the energy is equal....at least in my limited capacity to understand physics! The primary difference being, the length of time at which the energy is imparted, and the area (shoulder pad of rifle) in which it is imparted to! The weight of the rifle (uses up some of the energy and slows the energy over a longer period of time) the recoil pad absorbs some of the transmitted energy. However, I still contend, on large game.....energy is highly overrated! memtb

 

[Kaboom]

I have witnessed this first hand, 300 wsm. Guy was using a hot load with A max. He shot a Iowa whitetail at 50 yards in the shoulder. It left a 6" diameter wound that was only about 1-2 inches deep. He was able to head shoot it at 100 yards after bedding down. The bullet did not penetrate to the vitals. I will never forget that one. He learned target bullets aren't for hunting.

 

[rugers]

I shot a white tail at about 70 yds with a 300 wm 180 grn speer hit deer in shoulder it went down like a ton of bricks, was pouring a cup of coffee in stand deer jumped up and took off, a little amazed I shot again. Deer dropped again at about 150 yds. Upon examination of deer the bullet had hit the shoulder went down the front leg and blew a big whole out just above its hoof have never witnessed any thing like it before or since. Deer was shot in an open field so I know the bullet didn't hit any thing, the deer was down for I would say atleast 2 min or so. Enough time to pour a cup of coffee. One of my weirdest hunting moments.

 

[INVICTUS]

I have read many threads over the years about bullets blowing up on impact and not being a lethal hit with game such as a deer. My questions are as follows:

1. Has anyone ever witnessed a bullet actually blow up on impact with a deer, and not kill the deer? and what I mean by this is you were able to get a second shot on the deer and actually see the first shot in autopsy to confirm and not guess what happened.

2. If your answer to 1 is YES, I just do not get the physics of this so maybe someone can explain it to me. I just don't understand how a 140+ grain object going 2800+FPS can explode, even on bone, and the fragments do not still penetrate to the vitals.

I have used ballistic tips in the past in excess of 3000fps and while they definitely "blew up" inside the deer, they still took the deer out no problem. Ive yet to have one blow up on a shoulder and not had fragments penetrate to lungs and heart.

The answer is a big Yes .

I remember being a teenager and shooting round after round from a 270 win Ruger M77 MKII at s blade of tall grass from about 100 yds. I had wounded a deer a week earlier and the wound pattern did not make sense to me. A relative told me "you hit a tree limb". So I began to experiment. I hit the grass eventually and shatter a 130 jacketed soft point (federal). A piece of the jacket actually stuck in the surface of the 3/4" ply wood is was using as the target approx 3 feet behind the tall blade of grass seed.

Since then having been in hundreds of engagements and seeing what a 5.56 mm round does when impacting , the results because of this fragmenting effect can be shocking . Even from a steel core fmj Bullet.

The can definitely fragment. However I believe bullets are made better now than anytime in my life but it's still possible because of the sheer velocity they impact.

 

[ChickenTikka]

I know alot of people shoot deer with bergers but i or the guys i shoot deer with have never found them effective, and this is culling 250+ deer per year between 3 of us. Bergers are phenomenal target bullets but are just that, even the 'hunting' VLD's, we dont use anything below 6.5mm.

 

[Johnny blade]

Had an Nosler acubond blow up on impact on shoulder of an elk this year

 

[Johnslam]

Ft/lbs of energy on game is quite misunderstood, and misrepresented. I shot an elk at under 50 yards with a 270 grain bullet @ just under 3K, from a .375 AI. He never flinched, merely starting walking faster....then tipped over.
That same "misunderstood" 3500+ ft/lbs is also absorbed by the shooter. Yes, the rifles weight mitigates it a bit. The shooter rolling with the punch, reduces it somewhat....but physics is physics!

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object!

You, the shooter received the same energy, minus what the rifle absorbed! And, your still here! memtb

Kinetic energy = 1/2*M*V^2
You need to apply this formula for BOTH rifle and projectile.

While Newton's law still applies, it isn't apples for apples like you suggest

 

[Chap Pops]

Hornandy makes a"super explosive" (SX) .224 55 gr. bullet that is designed to "explode" very quickly. Some shoot dear with them, but I use them only for varmints.

 

[Hand Skills]

Please take no offense but the energy generated off the muzzle is not the same energy with felt recoil.

It's true, ...

Not to be argumentative, but, energy is energy. I believe, and maybe incorrectly, the energy is equal....at least in my limited capacity to understand physics! The primary difference being, the length of time at which the energy is imparted, and the area (shoulder pad of rifle) in which it is imparted to! The weight of the rifle (uses up some of the energy and slows the energy over a longer period of time) the recoil pad absorbs some of the transmitted energy. However, I still contend, on large game.....energy is highly overrated! memtb

Recoil energy of a 30-06 is 25ft/lbs. Muzzle energy of a 30-06 is 3000ft/lbs.

The FORCE is the same,

MOMENTUM is conserved, (when you include the mass of the propellant) but the energy is not the same.

ENERGY is misunderstood.


I have seen bullets come apart on game and fail to penetrate. I agree with JC that there is a better word for this than 'exploding'

 

[340Wby-4-everything]

COHUNT was spot on. Bullet material and construction is key to the physics of it all. Think about it like this, a .458 WinMag using softpoints on Cape Buffalo bulls has been recorded numerous times to hit a shoulder and flatten, even not breaking the shoulder in many cases. I'm sure it hurt and I would not want to be on the receiving end, but it would not be a killing result. Do that with a solid and you will get at least some penetration. There is also a recorded case of a male lion being shot in the face, actually in the mouth with a .458 and a brown bear in the mouth with a .375 H&H both with soft points and hitting a canine tooth in each. Here is the clincher, neither broke the tooth or knocked it out of the animal. In both cases the damage was the tooth was cracked, but only marginally. I saw pictures of both. Were they glancing shots, perhaps, but regardless, Amazing stuff. I know we are talking about deer here, but we are also not talking about the power of a big bore. Lastly, there is no definitive way to determine the way two solid objects (bullet being of consistent composition and bone being of varying) will react when one strikes the other. The "explosion" if you will may result in the direction from where it came to one side or the other to continuing on its intended path. As you can envision in a 360 degree circle there are a lot of directions for fragments to proceed that are not in the direction of the animal/target. At least 180 degrees one could argue.

 

[FEENIX]

Not to be argumentative, but, energy is energy. I believe, and maybe incorrectly, the energy is equal....at least in my limited capacity to understand physics! The primary difference being, the length of time at which the energy is imparted, and the area (shoulder pad of rifle) in which it is imparted to! The weight of the rifle (uses up some of the energy and slows the energy over a longer period of time) the recoil pad absorbs some of the transmitted energy. However, I still contend, on large game.....energy is highly overrated! memtb

Humans are not created to be able to absorb 3500 FT-LBS of energy as felt recoil.

Check out recoil calculators such as http://kwk.us/recoil.html