Excessive bullet run out. How to remedy?

[Trickymissfit]

Nope! When I started reloading it was reading this or that and an occasional phone call to my cousin who might.....have an answer, no interwebz, but by and large I learned it on my own. What I would have given to have a resource like this back then.

When I first setup my press to reload I was at a complete loss on where to start. Promptly destroyed the stem and seater plug on a brand new die. Call Fred Sinclair, and he took his time and coached me thru the process. About a week later I get this envelope from him with a copy of his book in it (was not on sale yet). I read the book end to end three or four times and called him a couple times a week. That guy probably knows more about precision reloading than most of us put together, and is more than willing to give a helping hand when asked.
gary

 

[Goofycat]

I have checked out several "concentricity" gauges. Some actually check concentricity, while others are basically a gauge to check runout. Here is a great explanation IMO of the difference between the two terms by B-P-UU: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/hornady-sinclair-concentricity-guage-64756/index4.html A couple of gauges can even move bullets in loaded cases, and that bullets are easier to "push" in annealed necks than in non-annealed necks.

It appears that not all the gauges offer the feature of being able to change bullet runout. The Hornady and the H&H do. There appears to be some disappointment in the accuracy of gauges with the vertical-sliding indicator in several gauges. One brand that differs in gauge design is the 21st Century. The gauge is able to measure the inside of case necks as well as the outside, plus it can check concentricity of the body of the case. It seems to blend the design of the Sinclair gauge with that of the Hornady or H&H, but it can't change the bullet position in loaded cases.

http://www.6mmbr.com/casenecktools.html
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Reloading :: Metallic Reloading :: Tools & Gauges :: Lock-N-Load® Ammunition Concentricity Gauge :: Ammunition Concentricity Tool
Eccentricity « Daily Bulletin
H&H Concentricity Gauge and Bullet Straightener « Daily Bulletin
Sinclair Inc Search : Reloading Equipment : Measuring Tools : Concentricity Gauges -

I may be wrong, since I don't own a gauge, and that I have been soaking my brain in concentricity gauges for two days straight, trying to decide on which model I really need. Since I do not shoot benchrest, and don't require the extreme accuracy required for BR or even LR from my medium-range rifles, I see no reason to consider a gauge that can adjust bullet runout in loaded cases. Why? Because I don't want to have to be faced with doing it for the large batch of reloaded cartridges I use for varmint hunting. Such a feature might be okay for BR shooters who would have no problem bending bullet positions in their relatively small batch of reloads, but for us varminters, it seems impractical. So, scratch the Hornady and the H&H.

So....I am tending to look at either the NECO or the 21st Century. I like the features of both instruments, even though the NECO's design uses a V-block, while the 21st Century uses ball bearings. I am suspect of the ball-bearing design, simply because any runout measured at the neck will be influenced by concentricity problems due to, say, a bent case resting on the ball bearings. If the bearings are not accurate for any reason, readings will be inaccurate.

That leaves the NECO. The question in my mind: Is the NECO more accurate, what with its different design and different type of dial indicator, is it easier to use, and does it perform any more important functions than the 21st Century? Have I failed to research any of the other brands, such as the one put out by Darrell Holland?

Finally, have I left anything out of my search, and should I reconsider the bullet-adjusting features of the Hornady and H&H, even though I don't like the thought of having to bend bullets for large batches? It seems that misaligned bullets should point to problems within the necks, either due to differences in neck thicknesses and/or neck runout, in which case the problem should be solved by checking the brass itself for brass quality, and/or improving brass preparation techniques, such as reaming out the inner neck surfaces or, in the case of standard chambers, lightly trimming the outer surfaces to take off the high spots, if any.

Trickymissfit, MikeCR, Joe and those of you who know far more than I, please let me know if I am on the right track, and let me know whether or not I need a gauge with a bullet-runout adjusting feature, given the fact that I don't really want to be bending bullets for each of 200, 300 or even 500 cases.

 

[rscott5028]

...or, do like we did in the old days

roll the cartridge on a flat surface and if the bullet wobbles, it's got too much runout

rifle accuracy isn't much better today

we just have better components, optics, and computers

 

[Mikecr]

I think you're on the right trail.
I like Sinclair: Sinclair Concentricity Gage - Sinclair Intl
The indicator on mine is plenty accurate enough.
I like it's pressed bearing supports(over anything fancier), and I like that a bent case DOES affect the reading, as all components combining toward runout need to be seen.
You know, bent is not straight.

I like the NECO also. Nothing wrong with it that I can think of.

The rotating bearings in 21st Century would have to be real **** good to mitigate degradation of readings -due to those bearings.
That's one of those tools I would prefer to physically compare with others before buying.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I've posted here more than once that we couldn't afford a gauge that used precision ball bearings to locate the case off of. I've seen ABEC 7's and 9's, and have bought a few in the past for work projects. There is one other type that has ball bearings but they don't rotate, but who sells them escaped me at the moment. A non rotating ball bearing setup would easilly be best.

Vee blocks are simple, but also not perfect. As they wear they will gain error. And they are only as good as the machining processes. To me it looks like a case holder similar to what Wilson uses in their trimmer might be the best way. They use generic 1020 steel, so you really want something better (like Thompson Rod or Versalloy with a ground finish) You could rotate this in a precision vee block that had an attached backstop. Or get even fancier. Another problem with vee blocks is that the work off an area contact rather than line contact. For some that dosn't mean a whole lot (I never worried too much about it myself)

Picture a dial indicator stem like the one Sinclair, Hornaday, Redding, and a few others use. It works off a gear & rack inside that is also spring loaded. Works pretty good in one direction, but any error machined in the gear & rack is also in the clock mechanism turning the dial. The ones with a built in encoder are far better. Using one accurately depends on how well the tip of the stem is tangent with the object it rests against. The really prefer to be vertical or horizontal, but will work Ok at an angle as long as they are aligned tangently with the O.D. You cannot ever rotate one!The next problem is that there is clearence in the bushing that guides the stem, and any lateral movement is error. If you must use one try to find one with less than .25" of travel, and better yet a jewelled one. A wand type indicator can be built with a single or dual spring setup on the anvil. Most are single, but a dual is slightly better. Is better at handeling slight missalignments on the rotating surface than the other (seven degrees is considered perfect by the way) Accuracey in them varies from brand to brand. Most all are in the one percent range while most gear & rack indicators are 10% unless jewelled. The Neco comes with a GEM brand indicator. They're built like a tank (otherwise I'd have destroyed a dozen of them!). Like the Last Word (a little better than the GEM) you can change the anvil easilly as they just snap in place, and come in several sized tips. The Best Test and Interrapid indicators are known as Cadillacs, and are zero lag units. Not cheap, but you often get what you pay for. In between these two and the last word we have the well known Federals, Mitutoyos, and Fowlers. They are plenty good enough for most anything we'll ever use them for unless we are rotating them. A five tenths Federal will do everything well, and hold it's accuracey for a long time. There are some use specific indicators that are even more accurate, but don't fall inline with our wants and needs. The most accurate indicator I've ever used was the electronic Federal, but there use is very limited. Rhan also sells a .000020" dial indicator, and if you need that accuracey it's the one to have. Most all of us here could do OK with a Last Word or a Gem (I own a half dozen last time I looked), but I like five tenths indicators a lot. Lastly, if you desire to change the anvil (some call it a stem but on a wand type it's an anvil) try to keep it the same length. Otherwise you'll stack up error internally (I doubut we see much). In otherwords five tenths is no longer five tenths.
gary

 

[Goofycat]

.000020 accuracy is commendable, but for purposes of bullet runout and realignment it would be a bit much; I mean, who can tweak bullets to such a minute amount? Accuracy out to ten thousandths seems to be the top end on practicality when working with cases and loaded cartridges; for my varmint-shooting accuracy at ranges of 400 yards maximum, I would opt for tolerance measurements in the .001" or .0001" ranges, unless someone else tells me differently.

I appreciate your reminder that we should always consider each point on an instrument that might offer the possibility of wear. If the instrument is to be used extensively for measuring thousands of rounds, for instance, I think that wear would be a serious consideration. For my purposes, I would be using a concentricity gauge only for quality-control purposes by taking sample concentricity/runout measurements only occasionally, thus making the wear factor not that important in the grand scheme of things. I.e., I see no reason to drive a Ferrari to go to the grocery store.

With the wear factor not holding much weight for my purposes, my concern would be more with the inherent lack of good design, materials and construction. Bad bearing material, for instance, would doom a gauge at the outset, as would bad design in their placement and rotation in the gauge itself. I haven't seen anything offered by any of the gauge manufacturers as to the accuracy of their instruments out-of-the-box and as to how long such accuracy would last. I assume we just trust them by buying their products and keep our fingers crossed? Such a shame that we don't have an outfit such as Consumers Reports so as to compare these items.....or do we?

 

[boomtube]

"Rhan also sells a .000020" dial indicator,..."

A dial indicator that can resolve 20 millionths of an inch is pretty impressive but I doubt any reloader needs that. I have a few one thou and one tenth reading dial indicators and find that one thou is as good as I need to check bullet runout for my factory rifles, can't imagine the difficulty of working with something 50 times that sensitive!

 

[rscott5028]

I'll have to get a whole lot better at reading wind to justify a .000020" dial indicator

 

[flashhole]

I don't get it. Why would you want to "fix" a round that shows excessive runout as opposed to using the runout tool to correct the flaw in the process that is causing the runout in the first place?

 

[Goofycat]

Exactly. I feel that the concentricity gauge should be used as a method of making sure your reloading technique isn't introducing runout in the first place. Using a gauge to "fix" runout problems for each round is kind of an after-the-fact bandaid. IMO, a gauge such as the Hornady or H&H that features the bullet runout "fix" should to be used solely to correct runout problems caused by the original reloading technique for those who need to "fix" only a few rounds, such as those loaded by bench rest shooters. It is impractical to correct bullet runout when using one of these gauges for hundreds of rounds, when it is (or should be) more practical to nip the cause of runout in the bud by good brass preparation and bullet-seating technique.

This is why I have chosen to not purchase a Hornady or H&H. I will go with either the NECO or the 21st Century. Neither feature the runout bullet-bender, but I don't need that feature, such as might be the case if I were a bench rest shooter who would not have to spend much time fixing runout for a relatively few rounds. If I find that the bullet runout is excessive, I'll find that out on the first couple of cases, then will shoot those cartridges, even though they have just a bit of runout, followed by checking out my technique.

 

[flashhole]

I use the Forster tool and check each step in the process that is conducive to a measurement. This method pointed me to a number of small but important things I do to ensure runout is not likely to be an end product.

 

[SAPPER26]

It's been a while since I posted this thread. I upgraded to the Redding T-7 press and after the cases have been fire formed I have been getting consistent .001-.002" run out with the Holland concentricity gauge. I still find, even with the forester bench rest seating die, that turning the case as I seat the bullet gives me the best results. After buying a new 8lb keg of H1000 and developing a new load of 90gr(92gr was too hot with the new lot of powder) I found a sweet spot that has given me average groups of 1.25" at 300yds. I'll fiddle with seating depth, but am pretty happy with the results. This post has developed some good topics on concentricity gauges. Thanks.

 

[sp6x6]

I have the Sinclair gauge,and a bud has Hornady.I have checked difference as stated.I switched from a Wilson standard inside chamfer to a Sinclair carbide vld type and my ammo improved to most at .001-.002 , rare one above that.

 

[Gene]

Somewhere I read - maybe in Tony Boyer's book - that you can straighten the loaded round once; but the next time using the same equipment, it will not remain concentric.

I also use the Holland tool, but I have no clue as to how accurate it really is.