Excessive bullet run out. How to remedy?

[Goofycat]

Mike, I just got off the phone with one of the Sinclair techs. He said that the Hornady's bullet-runout adjusting feature works better for benchrest shooters who might want to eliminate runout for the comparatively few reloads they use in matches, but that for someone like me who reloads far more cartridges at one time, eliminating runout on a few hundred cases AFTER the cases had all been reloaded would be a time-waster.

Sinclair suggested that only the first few cases be checked PRIOR to reloading all, say, several hundred cases because it is easier to find out what the cause of the runout is early on, rather than eliminating runout for a large batch one-by-one in the Hornady.

 

[Joe King]

Thanks for the reply, Joe. It seems that if there were a bullet runout problem that was discovered by the Hornady for one cartridge out of a batch of reloads, that the same amount of runout would be present in the remainder of the cartridges in that batch.

If this is the case, I wouldn't want to have to be faced with altering the runout by having to put all the cartridges in the Hornady to reduce runout.

That being the case, wouldn't it make more sense to check the first few cases for runout, and if there is runout, see what the cause is, rather than reload a few hundred cases, only to find out belatedly via the Hornady that ALL the cartridges suffer from runout?

I know that I may not make sense because I haven't read anything on the actual concentricity gauge procedures, nor have I ever used such an instrument, so I ask questions purely from the standpoint of being a complete novice on the subject of concentricity gauges.

Makes sense to me. I in the very least it will give you a heads up that something is a bit hinkey.

Mikecr thats just the very reason I like the idea of using the Siclair to get a reading then use the Hornady to correct the worst offenders.

 

[Goofycat]

The Hornady and H&H type neck benders are popular because they show only a small portion of runout, and then fool you into believing you can easily fix it.
The Sinclair(with bearings) shows ALL runout, and your cases are NOT straight until measured so on this v-block type of gauge.

Anyone could try & see this;
Take a case that measures <1thou TIR on a Hornady and drop it on a Sinclair to see that you still have way more runout.
Take a case that measures 1thou or less on a Sinclair and drop it on a Hornady, and it won't even register.

Sinclair sells great tools. But they also sell whatever does.

Mike, I feel like I may be running this thread into the ground, but here's another question: What about the NECO gauge? Does it do anything more and better (add "easier") than the Sinclair? It costs about $50 more, but would it be worth a look? I don't want to buy the Sinclair, then wish I should have bought another better gauge (but not one that costs $600).

 

[Mikecr]

You're asking a fox how many chickens you have..
What Sinclair should be telling you, is that with runout a concern, you're better off determining and fixing the cause of it, rather than BENDING YOUR NECKS on a bunch of ammo.

I'm tellin you disturbing your tension and seating depth to 'fix' runout is a very bad idea.
You're likely trading up something that matters little, for something that matters more.

 

[Mikecr]

The NECO can be used as a V-block, like Sinclair, and uses a better indicator.
I wouldn't assign any credit to it's other 'features' though.

 

[rscott5028]

Mike, I feel like I may be running this thread into the ground, but here's another question: What about the NECO gauge? Does it do anything more and better (add "easier") than the Sinclair? It costs about $50 more, but would it be worth a look? I don't want to buy the Sinclair, then wish I should have bought another better gauge (but not one that costs $600).

I own both the NECO and Hornady and have tested exactly the scenario that Mikecr explained and agree with him completely. The NECO will detect runout when the Hornady indicates zero. You can exacerbate or minimize this with the setup. But, different geometry will lead to different readings.

In that respect, the NECO is more similar to the Sinclair and probably roughly equal in design although I have no way to compare the responsiveness nor backlash of the dial indicator used by Sinclair to that of the NECO.

The main advantage of the NECO as compared to Sinclair is that the design allows for making a few different measurements for which Sinclair will gladly sell you a separate apparatus.

Straighten if you must. But, an ounce of prevention is best here. And, I think others have already pointed out that crooked necks will translate to crooked cartridges.

-- richard

 

[rscott5028]

The NECO can be used as a V-block, like Sinclair, and uses a better indicator.
I wouldn't assign any credit to it's other 'features' though.

..perhaps not in the normal course of reloading.

But, it's nice to have the option assuming everything else is truly equal.

-- richard

 

[coues7]

Great info!

 

[Goofycat]

Richard, when you say "crooked necks," do you mean necks that are tipped when compared to the rest of the case, or do you mean necks that display thickness differences between the inside and outside neck surfaces that would cause the bullet to cant, even though the neck itself is in line with the case.?
For instance, if the neck thickness on the 12 o'clock position is thicker than that at the 6 o'clock position, wouldn't this be a cause for concern, and wouldn't the remedy be to use an inside neck reamer so that the neck brass could be made even in thickness all the way around the neck?

Speaking of necks, I hate to be a pain in one, but as usual, the more stuff I read here, the more questions pop into my head.

 

[rscott5028]

Richard, when you say "crooked necks," do you mean necks that are tipped when compared to the rest of the case, or do you mean necks that display thickness differences between the inside and outside neck surfaces that would cause the bullet to cant, even though the neck itself is in line with the case.?
For instance, if the neck thickness on the 12 o'clock position is thicker than that at the 6 o'clock position, wouldn't this be a cause for concern, and wouldn't the remedy be to use an inside neck reamer so that the neck brass could be made even in thickness all the way around the neck?

Speaking of necks, I hate to be a pain in one, but as usual, the more stuff I read here, the more questions pop into my head.

either

basically, anything that causes the ID of the case neck to be non concentric for its full length with the centerline of that cartridge when chambered

all of which is a pretty deep topic

for simplicity sake, I like the dual v-block assumption that the case is held pretty much centered along its full length and that the shoulder will further center it as it's driven forward by the firing pin

the main point being that seating bullets isn't sufficient to bend a case neck back in line, rather the bullet concentricity will conform to that of the ID of the case neck

this was pointed out very early in this thread by Buffalobob, Mikecr, BartB and others

Originally Posted by Buffalobob
If you have case neck runout then geometry says you will have bullet runout.

 

[Joe King]

Speaking of necks, I hate to be a pain in one, but as usual, the more stuff I read here, the more questions pop into my head.

Thing is in this instance it because you getting good info and learning, neat thing about a good sight like this where folks know a thing or two

 

[Goofycat]

Roger on that, Joe. You guys are all incredible. I would imagine that at some earlier point in your reloading careers you all asked the same questions. I'm not as lucky as many, since my gun club has largely disbanded, and it's impossible to get any education or answers locally, so I have to rely on the internet or sometimes by calling companies on the phone. That's okay, though, as long as I have people like you to help.

 

[Joe King]

Nope! When I started reloading it was reading this or that and an occasional phone call to my cousin who might.....have an answer, no interwebz, but by and large I learned it on my own. What I would have given to have a resource like this back then.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I own both the NECO and Hornady and have tested exactly the scenario that Mikecr explained and agree with him completely. The NECO will detect runout when the Hornady indicates zero. You can exacerbate or minimize this with the setup. But, different geometry will lead to different readings.

In that respect, the NECO is more similar to the Sinclair and probably roughly equal in design although I have no way to compare the responsiveness nor backlash of the dial indicator used by Sinclair to that of the NECO.

The main advantage of the NECO as compared to Sinclair is that the design allows for making a few different measurements for which Sinclair will gladly sell you a separate apparatus.

Straighten if you must. But, an ounce of prevention is best here. And, I think others have already pointed out that crooked necks will translate to crooked cartridges.

-- richard

I own a Neco and someother case gauges. I like the Neco better than most another I've seen on the market these days. The Neco uses a much (and I mean VERY) better indicator setup than the others do. Nothing moves during the check except for the case and the indicator wand. If a part moves you also pick up error in that movement, so keep that in mind. The ball bearing vee block affair that one of them uses is not known as a precision ball bearing vee block. They do make precision ball bearing vee blocks that will cost you about $50 a piece, so your getting what you paid for there. I'm not inlove with the Neco vee block system as well (wear), but at least it stays put. The ones that come with the long travel indicators are a system looking for a place to screw up. The indicators usually have about 10% backlash (ChiComs are worse), and their accuracey is very dependent on the tip being almost perfectly tangent with the O.D. it's riding against. They also have a little bit of slop in the guide bearing for the stem. None of this is at all good for precision measurments. They do make long travel indicators that have about 3% backlash in them (jewelled), but usually have a much shorter travel and cost about fives times more. Where as a typical wand type indicator will have about 1% lag. (a Best Test or Interrapid will be zero lag)

I would put a .001" or a .0005" dial indicator on the backside of the rotating plate of the press and measure the flex when full length sizing a case. .002" will give you about .004" runout. There might be a way to tighten up the indexing plate, and would be worth the time ( a common issue with all turret presses). I would believe that the OP's issues start with the full length sizing operation and not is the bullet seating operation as the bullet will always seek the path of least resistence in seating.

Assuming your die is located in the proper place for the proper headspace, then full length size a case with the jam nut slightly loose. With the case fully inside the die tighten the jam nut. Then size another case to see if that helps. Secondly wipe the base of the case on a smooth india stone to make sure there are no hickeys and bumps in it from the extractor or manufacturing (common issue). The shell holder can be an issue as well (I hate them). See if you can stone a couple thousandths off the part that contacts the shell holder so it will not be held down tight. Then all you will use it for is case extraction (lets hope they machined it parallel). And while fooling around in that area take a small slip stone and stone the area the shell holders seats on (look for burrs). One thousand here will cause you a lot of grief after the error triangulates out the length of the case.
gary