ES and seating depth.

[L.Sherm]

How can you say it's untrue…it works for me and many others, it simplifies tuning powder, and there are many powder nodes, and there are many seating depth nodes, some overlap and some don't…just like all aspects of handloading.

Cheers.

If it works for you then that's great but its not the only way. I said its untrue that is the only way.
Making sure your in the middle of a powder node is were it begins thats were a powder ladder comes into play

 

[DustThroughaFan]

I've always done powder first then go after seating depth and I always seem to be chasing my tail. I've always gotten to where I wanted to be but there's been a couple that took way more effort than they should have. Usually it's been with hornady bullets.

Going forward I think I'm going to get within 2gr or so of my desired charge range then I'll do seating depth depth.

Like I mentioned earlier, and I should have caught on to this sooner, there were terrible loads that had good accuracy. The one thing all the good groups had in common was all the seating depths were within .003" of one another.

This is what I just shot a few minutes ago.

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

" just went back over my targets/notes and the exact load was .114" jump, 76gr of h1000 with a federal 210m which I loaded in Norma cases. Averaged 2748 fps, sd was 3.3, and es was 7. Shot a .365" for three shots. Maybe I should just pour a little more powder in this one and see what happens."

Why try more powder??
Are you seeking accuracy, or the fastest MV you can achieve? Accuracy is usually sacrificed as you push toward the highest MV (pressure).
You must have unlimited reloading supplies.

 

[Eric H]

I'd leave it alone. Single digit ES, single digit SD and a 1/3rd MOA? Is it a target or hunting rifle? Don't go down that "rabbit hole"!

 

[DustThroughaFan]

" just went back over my targets/notes and the exact load was .114" jump, 76gr of h1000 with a federal 210m which I loaded in Norma cases. Averaged 2748 fps, sd was 3.3, and es was 7. Shot a .365" for three shots. Maybe I should just pour a little more powder in this one and see what happens."

Why try more powder??
Are you seeking accuracy, or the fastest MV you can achieve? Accuracy is usually sacrificed as you push toward the highest MV (pressure).
You must have unlimited reloading supplies.

I'd leave it alone. Single digit ES, single digit SD and a 1/3rd MOA? Is it a target or hunting rifle? Don't go down that "rabbit hole"!

I hunt with it but it kills more steel than it does animals. I'm a velocity whore, I want speed and accuracy. If I wanted to go slow, I'd just stick with my 308. If I can get it up around 2900 I'll be happy.

Not sure if you saw the post or not, but I shot two loads, at two different seating depths, only four shots but the sd was 7. That was with the N570. And it went just over 2900. It's doable.

 

[gunner308]

You're doing it wrong, tuning seating depth should be done first because it will change the node, as you discovered, far too much trying to tune seating depth after tuning powder.
Doing it your way will repeat, groups will close then open and powder is a course tune, which is why it's doing what it's doing now.
I was once a believer in powder first, then seating depth, but after many attempts at seating depth first with a middle of the road load, the outcome has always been easier to tune powder with a tuned seating depth. Also, you may find .010" off the lands where it all comes together. I have always found .005" increments to work better than any other number, .010" is course, .005" is fine in regard to tuning and .003" is almost negligible.
In the 300WM, which I have 5 hunting rifles, one of which is a 5R and unfired, have all got SAAMI chambers, however, my comp barrels and 1 custom have the A191 chamber, which is far easier to tune across the board.

Cheers.

Of course there are many variables that affect accuracy, velocity & consistency. Seating depth, powder charge & bullet set back (jump) all are contributing factors but I've discovered through many hours at the range, case neck tension & bullet set back are major contributors to achieving repeatable velocity, accuracy, ES & SD. I trickle every charge but I've found that powder charge doesn't have a significant effect until you hit plus/minus 0.5 grs.

 

[SSG Graybush]

I'm already at a point with pressure where I think I'm going to have to back off. I don't think I can increase charge at this point.

I got the .003" increments from watching too many F class reloading videos. I figured it was negligible also until I tried it in my 308. Made a believer out of me. They say nodes come in .006" increments. .005" I believe would still work fine, any more than that I also believe would be too course.

This rifle was cut with a saami reamer and then throated to run the 215's at max length. Knowing what I know now, I'd have gone another route. The rifle has shot in .3" territory with a 212eldx so I know it will shoot. It's got 297 down the tube right now. It's shot some decent groups with a 215 and magpro but a friend gave me some of this N570 to try so I started over. I actually had decent luck jumping .060" with that powder but like I said, figured I'd start from scratch.

Bergers imo like 60 to 75 thou jump, usually. Idk why if it shot that bullet well at 60 thou you didn't start there, find your powder charge and then adjust seating depth. And 3 thou increments is the way to go imo.

 

[Wy Will]

I've done a lot of tail chasing and tried new tactics many times. I now do 5 shot grouping with different powders and powder charges. I find one that groups decent and has a low ES. Then I adjust seating depth. Sometimes this works and sometimes I burn through components without getting closer to my goals.

Even shooting ladders is hard and almost impossible most times since I use a public range and can't walk up to my target after every shot to mark the target. I can assume which shot is which, but I don't like to make assumptions. So many different ways that people do it and I never know which is "right"

 

[L.Sherm]

I use a public range and can't walk up to my target after every shot to mark the target.

Color your bullets and you dont have too!!

 

[Wy Will]

Color your bullets and you dont have too!!

Sharpie? I saw something on that a while ago. Honestly forgot about it. I think that I tried once and didn't have great results, but the plywood that my target was attached to was pretty beat up. I think that it didn't have enough friction to work well. I'll give it another try though.

 

[L.Sherm]

Use white paper.
And yes Sharpies

 

[L.Sherm]

Here is an example what a ladder should look like with 2 shot ladder

 

[A A Ron]

If your seeking high velocity then the pressure really matters. (Not only for safety but accuracy.) If you start at max mag length or the closest to the lands you will load with a bullet during an initial ladder test you will have definite answer as to the highest safe velocity you can obtain. You will see nodes along the way.(If you do the ladder test right.) Later you can go either way to tune the load shorter oal or more or less powder around a node you observed on the ladder. Seating depth and powder are not mutually exclusive. They affect each other for pressure and accuracy.

In my experience Berger Hybrid Targets are very tolerant of seating death changes. Nosler accubond long range are very sensitive to seating depth changes.

 

[Wy Will]

If your seeking high velocity then the pressure really matters. (Not only for safety but accuracy.) If you start at max mag length or the closest to the lands you will load with a bullet during an initial ladder test you will have definite answer as to the highest safe velocity you can obtain. You will see nodes along the way.(If you do the ladder test right.) Later you can go either way to tune the load shorter oal or more or less powder around a node you observed on the ladder. Seating depth and powder are not mutually exclusive. They affect each other for pressure and accuracy.

In my experience Berger Hybrid Targets are very tolerant of seating death changes. Nosler accubond long range are very sensitive to seating depth changes.

This is why I start at 0.010 from the lands during initial testing and find pressure. Then I only seat farther from the lands