Agreed!
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Energy or bullet diameter most important?
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Agreed!
Broz
Well-Known Member
Yes, Agreed. Just as I stated in my post #51 a few pages back.
Until proven differently, I am of the same school. NO bullet that works perfectly at 50 or 100 yards, can work equally well at slowed velocities of long range or ELR. Jeff
Yes, Agreed. Just as I stated in my post #51 a few pages back.
Jeff
... and agreed with you then in #53.
gun)Ed
Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
... and agreed with you then in #53.
Ed
Its pretty rare that i dont agree with Jeff.
Broz
Well-Known Member
I just hope , if the OP is still with us, he gets some good from the discussion. He asked for opinions on pass through design bullets and bullets that expel 100% of their retained energy into the animal. I think both sides have been represented.
To the OP, if you are interested at real world documented terminal wound canals and destroyed vitals from a fragmenting bullet. I think I posted 20 samples with impact velocity and pictures in this thread. From close to way out there, antelope to elk. All from the same season, rifle and bullet. The terminal performance testing starts on page 12 with post #79 of the thread. This might help you to decide if this is the type of performance you desire, or not.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/comparing-berger-210-vld-215-hybrid-88657/index12.html
Jeff
To the OP, if you are interested at real world documented terminal wound canals and destroyed vitals from a fragmenting bullet. I think I posted 20 samples with impact velocity and pictures in this thread. From close to way out there, antelope to elk. All from the same season, rifle and bullet. The terminal performance testing starts on page 12 with post #79 of the thread. This might help you to decide if this is the type of performance you desire, or not.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/comparing-berger-210-vld-215-hybrid-88657/index12.html
Jeff
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
From one deplorable to another,
The fmj comparison was an extreme comparison to make a point. I assumed that you would understand that. My mistake.
The size matters comment was a joke with some truth. The bigger the bullet the better it works. Every good joke has some truth or it is not funny. I even used a stupid smile face to point out the joke. I am quite disappointed that you took it as some sort of penis comparison. To take the conversation so personally is what I have seen on this forum for the last several years when ever someone disagrees with the Berger crowd. They get yelled at and belittled and what ever else to make them shut up. There is a reason that this site has turned into a classified add and not much more. This is a perfect example of why all the old timers with great knowledge have left this site. You have your own site that you do not want people to get personal on and won't tolerate it. I am trying very hard to make my understanding of how a bullet works understood. Along with how I got there. I figured when I got into this thread that the Berger crowd would come in fighting mad and do what ever possible to shut down the discussion. It reminds me of how the Democrats debate.
From one disappointed deplorable to another,
Steve
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
When the elephants fight it's the grass that get's trampled. Old Proverb from somewhere.
Speaking from the grass POV,
Size matters,
Terminal Velocity matters,
Construction matters,
Goals matters,
Specific experience matters,
Knowledge of anatomy, as well as some Physiology,
Shot placement,
I was reading bigngreen's experience shooting elk control in pivots. Take away was I don't need a better bullet I need me a pivot
Broz has carefully chronicled his experience with Berger's and Long Range Hunting. If I'm not misquoting him, he has been seeing enough difference in his situation that bigger does make a difference.gun)
RockyMtnMT, is on the quest for the one bullet that does it for everything, and he is in my mind making progress. I know he just purchased literally a ton plus of bullet material chasing low velocity openings.lightbulb
So where does it leave me in my current circumstances, this season? I haven't seen enough terminal experience (first hand) with Berger's or Hammer's to speak intelligently or with authority concerning that aspect of the game.
My season goals is to help 3 youngsters fill doe tags.
1) A 30-06 with 181 Hammer's
2) A .260 stuffed with 130 Berger AR Hybrids
3) A .338 Ultra with 180 Accubonds.
All three young men have different nature's, and abilities. The .338 is only coming out because of a blown ACL in last weeks football. So far the better shot of the 3, and he won't be getting off the ATV this year, he could need a little more range.
His younger brother will be planted, with limited walking (heart surgery at 5 days old), most likely to have that shot feeding in a field. Plus he's been banging steel with it, will use the .260.
The 180 Hammers go to the fellow most likely to go in after them, and have the least predictable shot.
Point being the devils in the details. I have great confidence that sending either young man to hunt with either of the 3 men mentioned, and be certain each would have a great outcome.
Speaking from the grass POV,
Size matters,
Terminal Velocity matters,
Construction matters,
Goals matters,
Specific experience matters,
Knowledge of anatomy, as well as some Physiology,
Shot placement,
I was reading bigngreen's experience shooting elk control in pivots. Take away was I don't need a better bullet I need me a pivot
Broz has carefully chronicled his experience with Berger's and Long Range Hunting. If I'm not misquoting him, he has been seeing enough difference in his situation that bigger does make a difference.gun)
RockyMtnMT, is on the quest for the one bullet that does it for everything, and he is in my mind making progress. I know he just purchased literally a ton plus of bullet material chasing low velocity openings.lightbulb
So where does it leave me in my current circumstances, this season? I haven't seen enough terminal experience (first hand) with Berger's or Hammer's to speak intelligently or with authority concerning that aspect of the game.
My season goals is to help 3 youngsters fill doe tags.
1) A 30-06 with 181 Hammer's
2) A .260 stuffed with 130 Berger AR Hybrids
3) A .338 Ultra with 180 Accubonds.
All three young men have different nature's, and abilities. The .338 is only coming out because of a blown ACL in last weeks football. So far the better shot of the 3, and he won't be getting off the ATV this year, he could need a little more range.
His younger brother will be planted, with limited walking (heart surgery at 5 days old), most likely to have that shot feeding in a field. Plus he's been banging steel with it, will use the .260.
The 180 Hammers go to the fellow most likely to go in after them, and have the least predictable shot.
Point being the devils in the details. I have great confidence that sending either young man to hunt with either of the 3 men mentioned, and be certain each would have a great outcome.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Excellent post HARPERC, I've learned a lot from all these guys and have personally spent time talking face to face with many, Jeff and I don't agree on everything, Steve and I don't agree on everything but we all passionately beleive in a hunting method that provides the animal as quick and as clean a kill as possible and we all highly prize and are grateful for the meat. If we share in a common goal and after taking an animal we have nothing to be ashamed of then its all good.
Debate can be heated, healthy and sometime we go of the reservation but at the end of the day we have to go with what our personal experience dictates or were just another coolaid drinker!
Debate can be heated, healthy and sometime we go of the reservation but at the end of the day we have to go with what our personal experience dictates or were just another coolaid drinker!
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
For the guys that advocate the use of highly frangible bullets at ELR, how many of you are actually after a bullet that is highly frangible at ELR or are you using them because a bullet that is highly frangible at short range actually performs more like a regular cup and core hunting bullet when used at ELR.
Broz
Well-Known Member
First off... Thanks B&G and Harper. I appreciate the consideration and kind words.
Steve, we were talking bullet design, and performance, not brand names. Maybe go back and read how many times I used the company name of what I choose. That was on purpose. Others have also named other manufacturers. So to lump us all as "The Berger Crowd" and accuse us as "Coming in fighting" might be a stretch. But to use you words "Whatever" Now Steve, if your looking for me, and everyone else with a different opinion to move out of your way so you can only represent one side of a discussion, (and I don't believe you would want that) how will anyone learn the difference in these two types of bullet constructions? Now maybe look at my later posts where I tried to get back to the OP's question. I even offered the work I had done with the 215 thread so he could see actual results from one design. I ended it saying " This might help you to decide if this is the type of performance you desire, or not." Leaving the possibility he may prefer a non fragmenting design. I never said there is only one way. That I believe came along with someone saying something to the effect that sooner or later the fragmenting bullets will fail. Well, I think many of us here know ANY bullet design can fail. I never came here to attack you, if that's how you took it, you have my apologies. But I don't think its fair to discredit experience from anyone who has worked as hard as I to relay honest data. And I did it, and still do it, with no compensation from anyone. It is done out of passion for what we both care deeply about. Documented terminal performance and quick kills.
I have stated many times, and again in this thread. Sure less fragmenting could be fine at higher impact velocities. But extensive fragmentation still kills quickly for me. But I use what I do to be sure I get expansion at long range slowed velocities. Why? Because I have seen the results of no expansion at slower impact velocities. Again, if we have a bullet that will work perfect at 3000+ fps and work equally well at 1650 fps and below. I am all ears and would love to hear this. But until then, I will use what I do to improve my success percentages, and make the quickest kills under the worst scenarios. That being slowed bullet velocities from long distance shots.
Jeff
My response:
yobuck implied the discussion of meat ruined by bullets is off-topic on a long range hunting forum. I questioned why long range hunting would be a cause to exclude the discussion of bullet-ruined meat. It's just as pertinent as when hunting at any other range to me, as well as many other members that post on this Forum.
On the back of my response to yobuck, you more or less state don't shoot meat if you don't want to experience bullet ruined meat. "If you shoot an animal in the meat, and blame the bullet for meat loss, I'm not sure what to tell you." So don't shoot meat - problem solved - no need for further discussion - yobuck got it right?
If I misinterpreted that, then let's move on to my next possible misinterpretation. Who blamed a bullet for meat loss in this Thread, in the context that my bullet hit and ruined meat - therefore I blame the bullet? And was your post directed at anyone in particular? HammerB1 expressed his disdain for frangible bullets due to the large quantity of bullet damaged meat he's seen them cause, and for their lack of penetration. He blames frangible bullets for their increased rate of meat damage, rather than the simple fact that meat has been damaged, unless I totally misunderstood his Post. His clear preference is the use of a bullet that damages less meat - no matter where that bullet hits the animal.
Thus my difficulty interpreting your Post. Was your point as simple as bullets won't damage meat unless they hit meat? That seems way straightforward. Straightforward enough to prompt me to state "get real". Bullets hit meat more often than not, in my experiences, and bullets that hit meat damage meat. If all you were intending was that straightforward statement, then my apology.
Virtually every discussion on the subject of bullet-damaged meat I've read on this Forum has been focused on comparisons of the rate/quantity of meat ruined by bullets of differing construction, impacting game at differing velocities. It's a legitimate discussion for hunting game at any distance, in my opinion. And based on the Threads I've read in the past, the subject does enjoy member interest. Your post would be the first that narrows that scope on this subject to, bullets damage meat if you shoot meat. So don't blame a bullet if you shoot it into meat.
Best regards. Peace be with us.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
You and I are after exactly the same thing in the end. Yes the posts that you made after the one that I quoted had a different tone. My apologies if I miss interpreted your meaning in the post that I quoted.
I have said several times in this thread that I am open to scientific data that backs up the frangible bullet claims. I have never come close to excluding anything. I have also said that I would market such a bullet. We have the material and the design for such a bullet. I do not want to address someone who calls and says that my bullet did not penetrate enough and had a bad experience because of that.
I too have hundreds of big game kills with various bullets over the years with 100% success. Only one bullet that I considered a failure. Although the animal was dead so not a complete failure. It was a bullet 20 years ago that I determined did not open. That was one of the reasons that I searched so hard for what I considered the perfect bullet. Lots of frangible bullets that nearly blew deer and antelope in half. Using 180g class bullets from a 30-06. In my quest I found Shooting Holes in The Wounding Theory, which backed up what I had learned in the field, with scientific proof. As BnG said, it is not a perfect study. But it is the only one I know of, and it backs up my field data.
I am not done with my quest for better bullets, my quest is now in a place where I am making them. Headed out to test some today.
Jeff, we are equal in one aspect, I have not hunted with your bullet of choice, and you have not hunted with mine.
On the same team,
Steve
Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
A lot of assumptions being made here. Not the context my post was used in or intended to be.
Closer. This was the root of my comment advising that if meat loss was a problem you should look at where you are shooting the animal.
Shot placement is the easiest solution to meat loss. You can change that and keep everything else the same with amazing results.
Bingo. Thats exactly what i said, and exactly what i meant. It wasnt aimed at anyone in particular, which is the reason i why i only quoted RMulhern, and that was simply to agree to his comment that texas heart shots are effective at killing and waste very little meat.
Exactly. Those discussions always spiral back around to "bergers ruin meat." Its true, they do if you smash em into a shoulder bone. Id like to see a bullet that doesnt. The one that doesnt better go right into the heart, because i can assure you the wound cavity will be small.
Some of my favorite controlled expansion bullets have completely trashed shoulders. I dont bash the bullet, i stop shooting directly into the shoulder. To me its as simple as my statement in bold.
If conditions of the shot dictate its shoulder or nothing, ill take it. Ill also stay on the scope a lot longer, because ive seen some animals pop back up ****ed off and limping. Thats not a bullet problem, thats a shot problem, and was just an inconvenient side effect of a less than ideal opportunity.
Texas heart shots, shots to the head or neck, and shots right through the sternum are my three go to shots for pigs and deer. They have served me well and waste very little if any meat. With bergers it gives em just enough time to expand, and when they do there is nothing to protect the important stuff. These shots dont usually exit, animals will typically drop and not kick, and everything between the shoulders is ruined.
