HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Swung at and missed! Bigngreen is as solid a reference as we have.
Energy or bullet diameter most important?
- Thread starter MJU
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
I subscribe to the theory that you can't have too big of a gun but you can have too small. In general. That said, we have been hunting for the last several years with smaller than traditional cartridges and light for caliber Hammer Bullets to prove a point. That point is that proper bullet performance changes much of this discussion. You can use smaller cartridges / calibers with lighter bullets and have stellar results. There is no denying impact velocity with bullets that perform properly plays a role than energy. I've said it many times, energy has little to do with terminal performance. It is an arbitrary value that is maybe good for comparing diff cartridges.
Here is an interesting link to a short answer about energy. https://www.quora.com/Can-a-human-punch-carry-as-much-energy-as-a-bullet
The goal is to create the largest permanent wound channel you can. This is a function of the shape and speed of the object passing through the vital tissue to cause the most rapid blood loss. The longer and wider the permanent wound channel the better. Very wide shallow wound channels are problematic when shot angles are not perfect or shot placement is not perfect. Describing highly frangible bullets. The window for success is narrowed. A bullet with little deformation will create a long permanent wound but very narrow thus reducing the rate of blood loss. This also happens with bullets that open to a rounded shape that, for lack of better words, more gently passes through vital tissue. Again reducing the window for success. Many bullets present both problems with a narrow range of impact velocity from high to low that the will work properly.
That said there is a shock factor that is very difficult to calculate. This is the phenomenon of animals that drop on impact even though the central nervous system was not directly impacted. This happens when the impact and deformation of the bullet raises the blood pressure of the animal instantly so high that the animal strokes out causing instant death like a brain shot. We have done a lot of work on figuring out how this happens in order to get the best terminal performance possible. The function of shedding weight and retaining a flat frontal area on the retained shank, without losing too many fps during the deformation process is the key to creating this pressure and pushing it farther through the animal. The term bubble best describes this. Our goal at Hammer Bullets is to create this pressure bubble with the widest range of impact velocity we can. We are successfully doing this better than any other bullets on the market.
Here is an interesting link to a short answer about energy. https://www.quora.com/Can-a-human-punch-carry-as-much-energy-as-a-bullet
The goal is to create the largest permanent wound channel you can. This is a function of the shape and speed of the object passing through the vital tissue to cause the most rapid blood loss. The longer and wider the permanent wound channel the better. Very wide shallow wound channels are problematic when shot angles are not perfect or shot placement is not perfect. Describing highly frangible bullets. The window for success is narrowed. A bullet with little deformation will create a long permanent wound but very narrow thus reducing the rate of blood loss. This also happens with bullets that open to a rounded shape that, for lack of better words, more gently passes through vital tissue. Again reducing the window for success. Many bullets present both problems with a narrow range of impact velocity from high to low that the will work properly.
That said there is a shock factor that is very difficult to calculate. This is the phenomenon of animals that drop on impact even though the central nervous system was not directly impacted. This happens when the impact and deformation of the bullet raises the blood pressure of the animal instantly so high that the animal strokes out causing instant death like a brain shot. We have done a lot of work on figuring out how this happens in order to get the best terminal performance possible. The function of shedding weight and retaining a flat frontal area on the retained shank, without losing too many fps during the deformation process is the key to creating this pressure and pushing it farther through the animal. The term bubble best describes this. Our goal at Hammer Bullets is to create this pressure bubble with the widest range of impact velocity we can. We are successfully doing this better than any other bullets on the market.
I don't disagree with what Steve said in terms of goals etc… however energy actually has a lot to do with terminal performance. It is nothing more or less than potential to do work. The more energy a bullet has, the more potential it has to do damage. For ex, in the energy link above, what is the difference between a 400 ft-lbs George Foreman punch and a 30 ft-lbs Obama punch. Energy! All of the things talked about causing a longer/wider wound or bubble or whatever is nothing more or less than the result of energy. The more you have the bigger these will be if bullet doing its job
What kills is energy lost (work) by the bullet crushing and tearing tissue by means of temporary and permanent wound cavity. Velocity, bullet construction, cross sectional area, target resistance all affect how the energy is transferred. The reason velocity is important is 2 fold - #1 dynamic pressure, #2 drag. The faster a bullet hits the more dynamic pressure. If dynamic pressure is higher than the material strength of what bullet is made of, the bullet will deform. Once bullet slows down, dynamic pressure reduces and bullet will stop deforming. So higher velocity means more/faster expansion or fragmentation.
The other thing velocity impacts is drag. Drag is proportional to v^2. The diameter of temporary wound cavity (bubble or whatever you want to call it) at any time is proportional to energy transfered at that time . Drag is what influences the rate of energy transfer. Drag is also proportional to the cross sectional area so a wider bullet does similar as higher velocity. Temporary cavity may add to permanent wound cavity based on a lot of things but in general it does in high velocity/energy rifle rounds and not in low velocity/energy handgun rounds
However velocity means nothing without energy and vice versa. It is all intertwined. The reality is so long as you get some decent holes through the vitals bigger holes dont really matter.
Lou
What kills is energy lost (work) by the bullet crushing and tearing tissue by means of temporary and permanent wound cavity. Velocity, bullet construction, cross sectional area, target resistance all affect how the energy is transferred. The reason velocity is important is 2 fold - #1 dynamic pressure, #2 drag. The faster a bullet hits the more dynamic pressure. If dynamic pressure is higher than the material strength of what bullet is made of, the bullet will deform. Once bullet slows down, dynamic pressure reduces and bullet will stop deforming. So higher velocity means more/faster expansion or fragmentation.
The other thing velocity impacts is drag. Drag is proportional to v^2. The diameter of temporary wound cavity (bubble or whatever you want to call it) at any time is proportional to energy transfered at that time . Drag is what influences the rate of energy transfer. Drag is also proportional to the cross sectional area so a wider bullet does similar as higher velocity. Temporary cavity may add to permanent wound cavity based on a lot of things but in general it does in high velocity/energy rifle rounds and not in low velocity/energy handgun rounds
However velocity means nothing without energy and vice versa. It is all intertwined. The reality is so long as you get some decent holes through the vitals bigger holes dont really matter.
Lou
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
I agree. In the whole scheme of things I put energy low on the list of what makes a bullet kill effectively. The bottom line is, what a bullet does with the energy is most important. Energy is given too much credit or credence. Particularly with regards to the term energy dump. Poor penetration from bullets that "dump" energy are on the verge of failure. The perfect bullet would make it's deformation on impact to the perfect square frontal area retained shank with shed weight following it and never lose a single foot per second as it passed entirely through the animal. This would create the largest permanent wound channel and impart the highest amount of shock possible. We can't make a magic bullet but we can strive for better. The speed and shape of the deformed bullet as it passes through the animal is what does the damage. Not the amount of energy the bullet has and leaves behind. Obviously a bullet with no energy is motionless, so yes energy is part of the equation but not the equation.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Ok, I feel like some sport, I'll bite since it cracked me up that you would respond to "Mr Keyboard" with no experience but "ballistics" which last time I looked were keyboard generated, so what in my post is incorrect in your experience? Overwhelm me with your elk killing insight but please carefully read my post!
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Hey, I want my own labels!! Boolits for Mr K!!!I think I'm going to start calling you Mr K for short!
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
1950 yards out this evening, waiting for wolves...... Off the back porch!
Gotta get my keyboard mounted though, maybe get me a few hundred more yards!!
Gotta get my keyboard mounted though, maybe get me a few hundred more yards!!
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
You found that pic on the internet and made it yours. Just like the other jockeys here!
BrentM
Well-Known Member
Hey now I have my own. Plus it counts if you copy off the net and save to your photos.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Which scope level do you like? I'll send you one
Moose47
Well-Known Member
Okay!! Since neither of us truely have any idea of each other's hunting experiences I will concede that the 6.5 Creedmore or for that matter any hunting rifle in the hands of a " proficient hunter" would be deadly. However your remarks got my attention for the simple balistic differences that characterize these two great cartridges.
300WM/Weatherby vs 6.5 Creedmore
300, More velocity, more energy at all ranges, larger bullet dia with larger wound channel.
6.5, Far less recoil and more aerodynamic bullet
The 6.5 would need a hunter with far greater shot placement skills to concentrate on the heart and vitals vs a hunter with a 300 that strikes the game with as much as 50 % or more energy as the 6.5. Not implying that shot placement isn't critical.
With all that said hunter's who have issues with recoil should either practice more or not choose a magnum caliber rifle.
As for my experiences I have hunted in Alaska for the last 40 + years. In our state we hunt around some of the largest Brown Bear populations in the world . In my experiences if one of our hunting partners is using a small caliber rifle then we always make sure one of us has a large caliber rifle just in case.
Great to hear from you!!
memtb
Well-Known Member
Which scope level do you like? I'll send you one
The rifle is level, just not the scope…..it's "pre-set" for shooting on uneven terrain!
memtbShane Lindsey
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2010
- Messages
- 3,799
