Energy or bullet diameter most important?

[memtb]

Me too. I love and use ignorant prejudice.

You "may" use it…..I "excel" at it! memtb

 

[Rich Coyle]

memtb ,

You made me laugh out loud. Thanks.

 

[memtb]

memtb ,

You made me laugh out loud. Thanks.

I have now fulfilled life's tasks assigned to me…..I shall now pass quietly from the scene! Oh, hell no…y'all aren't rid of me that easily!

Have a great one Rich! memtb

 

[bigngreen]

Yes, even big bull elk can be killed with small caliber rifles, but not reliably. I have seen a lady kill a bull with a .243, but it took 3 hits to bring him down. I've seen a guy kill a bull with a 6.5 prc, but again 3 shots to the chest before he went down.
I have a bunch of rifles, but I would reach for my .300 WM or 28 Nosler for an elk hunt. Maybe take my 7 mag as a backup/spare rifle, but not my 6.5 prc or .270 as I have better choices.
I bet the % of wounded/got away elk is higher for 6.5 Creedmore than .300 WM if the hunter is proficient.

If the hunter is proficient there is zero difference between the 6.5 and 300, I've never seen my daughter shoot an elk twice after she Creedmored them, I've seen her put elk down for grown men and she's not kind to them about having to finish an elk for them.
The only advantage I've seen a magnum give is just adding distance to the shot possibility, for average elk hunting I've seen them be way more a liability due to people just not being able to handle them. Far more elk are wounded buy guys who can't handle a magnum rifle, by a wide margin!!!

 

[BrentM]

A big "negatory" there partner! Let's use as an example a nice, fat, wide metplat 500 grain .458 moving at a very low fps (let's just say 1200 fps) …..it only has approximately 1600 ft/lbs energy. But that big, heavy, flat nosed bullet will very likely "full length" an elk…..breaking a lot of important stuff while it "rumbles" along it's journey! The elk will be much more impressed by several feet of damaged organs than with the 1600 ft/lbs energy! memtb

Well we are on a long range page so I was thinking that is the direction of the conversation. My bad

 

[L2land]

Is it obvious now that this conversation has been had and will continue to be had as long as man uses projectiles?

 

[Rich Coyle]

Well we are on a long range page so I was thinking that is the direction of the conversation. My bad

You silly boy, this is the Internet. No telling where it's going.

 

[L2land]

It's gonna keep going if it's heavy and it's gonna blow up in front of us if it's too fast!! Where's my notes….

 

[madair]

This is s discussion that has been going on for well over a century. I think John Taylor's Knock "Knick Out Value" concept which assumes a solid bullet still has relavance today.

(Bullet weight X Bullet Diameter X Velocity) / 7000 = Knock Out Value

He believed ithat a value of at least 60 was needed to knock out an elephant with a properly placed bullet to the head. I like to use this formula using the velocity "at the target". A value of "10" for deer sized game and "15" for elk sized game. While it doesn't account for bullet expansion I think it does account for sufficient penetration energy to reach and damage the vital organs and has served me well as a guideline. The formula gives credence to velocity, bullet weight, and diameter to effectively take game. IMO.

For example, 1000 yards is my max range for deer with my 6.5x284. (1850FPS X .264 X 142) / 7000= 9.9 Knock Out Value.
My 300WM load produces a value of 15 at 1000 yards. (1800FPS X .308 X .210) / 7000.

Ooh I really like this idea of knock out value. My dad is getting ready for a spring brown bear hunt on AK peninsula next year and we've been having the discussion of energy vs bullet diameter. The .338 RUM/Lapua with a 300 gr Berger absolutely blows away the .375 Ruger and .375 H&H in energy, especially at distances of 300+yds. But Alaskan guides have always used and recommended the .375. I am obviously a novice, and we'd need an Alaskan to help us understand why the .375, but I'm guessing it comes down to penetration. A bear with a hole out each side is easier to bleed out and therefore, track. But even in that case, maybe a bonded or full copper bullet like the Barnes TSX in .338 would still outperform the .375? If anyone else has more thoughts on brown bear penetration, please share! I really like the insight everyone has shared on this thread!

 

[Moose47]

If the hunter is proficient there is zero difference between the 6.5 and 300, I've never seen my daughter shoot an elk twice after she Creedmored them, I've seen her put elk down for grown men and she's not kind to them about having to finish an elk for them.
The only advantage I've seen a magnum give is just adding distance to the shot possibility, for average elk hunting I've seen them be way more a liability due to people just not being able to handle them. Far more elk are wounded buy guys who can't handle a magnum rifle, by a wide margin!!!

Foolish words there Mr keyboard ! Simple balistic facts overwhelm your comment.

 

[memtb]

Quote from madair: But even in that case, maybe a bonded or full copper bullet like the Barnes TSX in .338 would still outperform the .375? If anyone else has more thoughts on brown bear penetration, please share! I really like the insight everyone has shared on this thread!

Not if you use a mono (Example 270 TTSX or 300 TSX) in the .375! memtb

 

[dogz]

If the hunter is proficient there is zero difference between the 6.5 and 300, I've never seen my daughter shoot an elk twice after she Creedmored them, I've seen her put elk down for grown men and she's not kind to them about having to finish an elk for them.
The only advantage I've seen a magnum give is just adding distance to the shot possibility, for average elk hunting I've seen them be way more a liability due to people just not being able to handle them. Far more elk are wounded buy guys who can't handle a magnum rifle, by a wide margin!!!

What BNG says, good words by someone with good amounts of elk killing knowledge and experience.

 

[madair]

Quote from madair: But even in that case, maybe a bonded or full copper bullet like the Barnes TSX in .338 would still outperform the .375? If anyone else has more thoughts on brown bear penetration, please share! I really like the insight everyone has shared on this thread!

Not if you use a mono (Example 270 TTSX or 300 TSX) in the .375! memtb

Yes, but what about at distance? That BC is way worse, and the resulting energy is lower than the .338.

 

[memtb]

Yes, but what about at distance? That BC is way worse, and the resulting energy is lower than the .338.

Energy is "WAY" overrated pertaining to large animals!

Grizzlies and Browns are generally shot a closer ranges …..the closer the better! Most guides prefer good placement and the best performance that the cartridge can provide! Bigger holes and deeper penetration are very desirable…..though, there is nothing wrong with the .338WM. My wife had used one (.338 WM) exclusively since 1996…. though never on an Alaskan Brown or a Grizzly. Though, a moose, Black Bear, quite a few Antelope, Deer, and Elk have been taken by her with her .338.

The Barnes 270 gr. LRX has pretty good BC's….and should be a good bullet for the H&H. I will be building a load with 270 LRX's this summer for my AI…..though, I'll be running a bit more mv than a standard H&H.

These are just my opinions….I'm certain that others may have different views! memtb