7mm-08 is a great choice for bear, elk and deer. It's all about the shooter. The most important thing you can do to make sure your rifle will perform when the opportunity arises is to go practice so you can put the shot where it needs to go. There is no magic whiz bang round or rifle that is going to make the difference. A 88gr ELD through the heart lungs of an elk is going to kill it faster than a 300gr Berger in its guts at 400yds.
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Effective Range 7mm-08 & 6.5 CM
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Tikkashooter
Well-Known Member
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Heres a video of me shooting a cow at 300 yards with a 20" barrel 7mm-08 and a 160 tmk, a frield of mine used the same rifle to shoot his cow at 375, both 1 shot kills and pretty much dead within seconds.
I'm not saying it's not recommended, but where did you read that from the CP&W? However, this is the only thing that is required from CP&W for elk hunting.
"1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be a minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, a maximum of six rounds are allowed in the magazine and
chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh a minimum of 70 grains for deer,
pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact
energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000 ft.-pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small-game mammals or furbearers with
a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk
seasons west of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season.
A small-game, furbearer or unfilled big-game license is required."
ladebenken
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2014
- Messages
- 31
Well, my answer to the question is: The distance you can hit a 10" target every f.. time. Divide this distance in half and you have a safe distance to shoot at animals.
If the question was about the pure performance of the cartridge, its about how much mv, which bullet and so on.
I use 6,5 on roe deer, and red deer/stag. On red deer my max distance is about 6-700 yards in ideal conditions. I use 147gr eld-m. Before i used nosler ablr 142gr. The bullets do not exit when i hit the shoulder at over 450 yards.
On roe deer my max distance is about 400 yards, the vitals is only about 6" so its smal.
Are you using thougher bullets like 140gr AB, its about you hitting the target, and the bullet to retain over 1800fps when hitting, it will do the job.
When we talking pure penetration, energy is a bad way to describe ability to penetrate. The formula for energy in Joule is: mass * velocity * velocity.
A far better decription of a bullets ability to penetrate is what we in scandinavia call "mass speed" The formula for this is: mass * velocity The point is that a heavier bullet will penetrate much better than a lighter bullet, even if it has the same amount of energy. In norway moose/reindeer/red deer cartridges must have over 2200 J / 155grain or 2700 J / 140grain bullet. at 110 yards.
If the question was about the pure performance of the cartridge, its about how much mv, which bullet and so on.
I use 6,5 on roe deer, and red deer/stag. On red deer my max distance is about 6-700 yards in ideal conditions. I use 147gr eld-m. Before i used nosler ablr 142gr. The bullets do not exit when i hit the shoulder at over 450 yards.
On roe deer my max distance is about 400 yards, the vitals is only about 6" so its smal.
Are you using thougher bullets like 140gr AB, its about you hitting the target, and the bullet to retain over 1800fps when hitting, it will do the job.
When we talking pure penetration, energy is a bad way to describe ability to penetrate. The formula for energy in Joule is: mass * velocity * velocity.
A far better decription of a bullets ability to penetrate is what we in scandinavia call "mass speed" The formula for this is: mass * velocity The point is that a heavier bullet will penetrate much better than a lighter bullet, even if it has the same amount of energy. In norway moose/reindeer/red deer cartridges must have over 2200 J / 155grain or 2700 J / 140grain bullet. at 110 yards.
I'm confident I'll be on the opposite side of most responses to the OP's question.
For example I'm at 9,000 ft and run a 7mm 08 with a 162 ELDM at 2700+ fps out of a 26" braked bartlien barrel. It has and will crush elk out to 900 yards. (ok crush is a bit strong lol) Not because it's a beast of a cartridge but because the 7mm ELDM bullet will perform down to around 1800fps even a bit slower. In the same breath I'd be cautious to run a traditional 140 gr anything past 350ish yards in a 7mm 08 just my opinion.
My first take away to the OP is... match the "bullet" with the velocity it needs to be moving to perform at the distance(s) you are considering. Manufacturers' list the min velocity necessary for their particular bullet to perform so you can match your shooting distances to the cartridge size needed and MV necessary to reach that result in a given bullet size. Funny thing is that does not always equate to a beast of a magnum even at 1K.
For example, most will agree Hornady says the 162 ELDM needs a min of 1800 FPS at impact to perform as designed. I reach that threshold, at or just under, one thousand yards. Where as say a faster 7mm - a 28 Nosler will hit the 1800fps threshold a few hundred yards further say 1200 yards or so - don't quote me but confirm. However, to do that you have more recoil with higher MV, throat wear, cost per shot, etc with the same bullet. If you change bullets then all is lost and we have to start over lol.
An interesting side note: I've had lots of shooters (experienced and not) that run the fast 30's, 7mm, 33's etc get behind that 7mm08 and can't believe they are able to get first round hits out at 1270 1400, 1760, 2260. Every time - I see a light bulb go off in their head and a grin on their face. Hell I run that rig in PRS comps too. For some reason even experienced shooters associate distance with bigger calibers and more recoil.
Another take away if anyone is still reading lol. Since 900 yards is good shot for anyone on game regardless of a given MV. I'd personally rather do it with less recoil. That is not to say I don't like running my 338 Edge because I still do.
Another source to help the OP decide on a caliber to drive 7mm or 6.5 bullets is to look up Nate Foster in New Zealand. He has done and continues to do extensive research dissecting animals killed in the field and clearly demonstrates the results that a given bullet and cartridge case size produce at given ranges. Super insightful and based on facts not theory or opinion.
**let us all know what case you decide on ... to drive your 7mm or 6.5 bullets!
For example I'm at 9,000 ft and run a 7mm 08 with a 162 ELDM at 2700+ fps out of a 26" braked bartlien barrel. It has and will crush elk out to 900 yards. (ok crush is a bit strong lol) Not because it's a beast of a cartridge but because the 7mm ELDM bullet will perform down to around 1800fps even a bit slower. In the same breath I'd be cautious to run a traditional 140 gr anything past 350ish yards in a 7mm 08 just my opinion.
My first take away to the OP is... match the "bullet" with the velocity it needs to be moving to perform at the distance(s) you are considering. Manufacturers' list the min velocity necessary for their particular bullet to perform so you can match your shooting distances to the cartridge size needed and MV necessary to reach that result in a given bullet size. Funny thing is that does not always equate to a beast of a magnum even at 1K.
For example, most will agree Hornady says the 162 ELDM needs a min of 1800 FPS at impact to perform as designed. I reach that threshold, at or just under, one thousand yards. Where as say a faster 7mm - a 28 Nosler will hit the 1800fps threshold a few hundred yards further say 1200 yards or so - don't quote me but confirm. However, to do that you have more recoil with higher MV, throat wear, cost per shot, etc with the same bullet. If you change bullets then all is lost and we have to start over lol.
An interesting side note: I've had lots of shooters (experienced and not) that run the fast 30's, 7mm, 33's etc get behind that 7mm08 and can't believe they are able to get first round hits out at 1270 1400, 1760, 2260. Every time - I see a light bulb go off in their head and a grin on their face. Hell I run that rig in PRS comps too. For some reason even experienced shooters associate distance with bigger calibers and more recoil.
Another take away if anyone is still reading lol. Since 900 yards is good shot for anyone on game regardless of a given MV. I'd personally rather do it with less recoil. That is not to say I don't like running my 338 Edge because I still do.
Another source to help the OP decide on a caliber to drive 7mm or 6.5 bullets is to look up Nate Foster in New Zealand. He has done and continues to do extensive research dissecting animals killed in the field and clearly demonstrates the results that a given bullet and cartridge case size produce at given ranges. Super insightful and based on facts not theory or opinion.
**let us all know what case you decide on ... to drive your 7mm or 6.5 bullets!
William Scalia
Member
William Scalia
Member
On the Elk Hunting University web page for CP&W Lesson 9. At the end of the 5th paragraph, I believe, it states, "The general consensus is that for a broadside shot on an elk you need 1,200 foot-pounds of energy and at least 2,000 foot-pounds for any quartering shot." I'm only going by this, and until I can go out and do for myself, I have to rely on this and also the info I glean from you guys on this site. A lot of good info on this site.
whirlwindjml
Well-Known Member
I agree with the above. Whatever bullet you use usually has a recomended speed for good expansion. The energy dont matter if the bullet dont pop open.
The 2 cows were @ 515. 143 eldx 6.5 creed precision hunter. The bullets pass through at that range if they dont hit nothing solid. 800 is where i draw the line with that round. If its windy or there any doubt im not solid it will be a lot closer.
greenejc
Well-Known Member
Go to this site and read the experimental data and wounding information for each of the calibers and cartridges that have been tested. The people here have done extensive testing of various bullet brands and calibers to determine effective immediate one shot drops with each caliber and type/brand of projectile. Since they give very good, repeatable data, I'd go with what they have found out. www.ballisticstudies.com
As 2C/1H and Greenejc mentioned visit Nathan's website and go over the Cartridge Research section, tons of helpfull info.
You can also get his books and learn even more about long range shooting and hunting. I got them and they have been very helpful
Thanks for the information, I've never looked at the Elk Hunting University web page. I've killed a few elk, and I got my daughter her first elk last Saturday with a muzzle loader. She killed her bull on a hard quartering to shot at 37 yards with a 250 grain Powerbelt Areolite bullet. At the muzzle it had around 1600 ft-lbs of energy at at 37 yards it had dropped to 1300 ft-lbs which doesn't exactly fit in the narrative of EHU requirements.
Using EHU requirements for elk that limits a .30-06 shooting a 180 grain boat tail bullet to 300 yards on a quartering shot. Experience has taught me the .30-06 will work well beyond 300 yards on elk even on a quartering shot. So my experience tells me use what you learned at EHU as a general guideline, not a rule that has to be strictly followed.
Familiarity with your rifle and cartridge it shoots, along with a high confidence level that you're going to put the bullet where it belongs matters more than how much energy it carries.
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Its always gonna baffle me.....this being a "long range hunting forum" I contually see short range hunting comments and people not knowing the correlation between FPS and FPE.
for example hornady data for say the 162 ELDM states you need at least 1800 FPS for the bullet to perform correctly. It's assumed a person is going to run their ballistics program and in my case for a 7mm 08 it shows I have over 1160 FPE at the target while the bullet is moving 1800fps at 1000 yards with a 2700 MV. It's that simple folks but it's not if you don't know how to run a ballistics app or kestrel with AB.
In reference to the state website saying 1200 FPE //// its all relative my friends - they are just capturing info in a different viewpoint to give advice. The website or the bullet manufacturer has no way of knowing what caliber you'll choose to push what bullet at what velocity. So one speaks in terms of FPS and the other FPE. Once a person understand how to run the app or kestrel it literally takes less than 3 mins to plug in the data and know at what distance a given load or bullet will or will not perform.
Before the 300 or less crowd states the obvious!!!! IF YOU CAN'T CONSISTENTLY HIT AT LR RANGES YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING IT ON GAME. Please save it for smashing rocks till you know your limits. Common sense right?
I'll not even start talking about wind calls you'll learn that when smashing rocks at distance. Bahahaha
for example hornady data for say the 162 ELDM states you need at least 1800 FPS for the bullet to perform correctly. It's assumed a person is going to run their ballistics program and in my case for a 7mm 08 it shows I have over 1160 FPE at the target while the bullet is moving 1800fps at 1000 yards with a 2700 MV. It's that simple folks but it's not if you don't know how to run a ballistics app or kestrel with AB.
In reference to the state website saying 1200 FPE //// its all relative my friends - they are just capturing info in a different viewpoint to give advice. The website or the bullet manufacturer has no way of knowing what caliber you'll choose to push what bullet at what velocity. So one speaks in terms of FPS and the other FPE. Once a person understand how to run the app or kestrel it literally takes less than 3 mins to plug in the data and know at what distance a given load or bullet will or will not perform.
Before the 300 or less crowd states the obvious!!!! IF YOU CAN'T CONSISTENTLY HIT AT LR RANGES YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING IT ON GAME. Please save it for smashing rocks till you know your limits. Common sense right?
I'll not even start talking about wind calls you'll learn that when smashing rocks at distance. Bahahaha
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I'm a little curious about the 7mm08 mostly because of what I saw running 215 Berger's from my 308 and how hard they hit elk, I would really like to play with a 195 Berger in a 7mm08, the typical 140-160 gr bullets really don't interest me since thats what I run out of 6.5s and with so much SD they pile drive elk!!
If it we kept it to the 140-160 class bullets I've taken the 6.5 every time because they have so much more penetration an lethality!
I don't use KE number for anything, they don't kill elk but impact velocity and the bullet opening and wrecking lungs and arteries to the of side is all I care about. Some bullets that's closer some it's farther, I won't take an accubomb below 2200 fps the king range version I try not to hit anything o er 2400 fps, 215 Berger's I'll take to 1500 fps some only to 1800, they all have a sweet range just stay in it and it's all good.
I've shot and seen shot so many elk with a 223 and 60 gr soft points and they just trot a few then wobble and tip, one round through the lungs, farthest was just over 300 so nothing long but relatively speaking it's never going to make the numbers most guys throw around.
If it we kept it to the 140-160 class bullets I've taken the 6.5 every time because they have so much more penetration an lethality!
I don't use KE number for anything, they don't kill elk but impact velocity and the bullet opening and wrecking lungs and arteries to the of side is all I care about. Some bullets that's closer some it's farther, I won't take an accubomb below 2200 fps the king range version I try not to hit anything o er 2400 fps, 215 Berger's I'll take to 1500 fps some only to 1800, they all have a sweet range just stay in it and it's all good.
I've shot and seen shot so many elk with a 223 and 60 gr soft points and they just trot a few then wobble and tip, one round through the lungs, farthest was just over 300 so nothing long but relatively speaking it's never going to make the numbers most guys throw around.
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2C/1H
Guess we can all just download an APP, and Len can shut down this forum.
You haven't been here very long, and I'm guessing you haven't spent much time on many forums before or you'd already know that every topic possible gets discussed weekly.
This forum (along with every forum) is going to be full of every type of hunter/shorter. Some shoot long range only, some shoot both and some are short range hunters. All of these opinions, experiences and people is what makes this forum.
Steve
Guess we can all just download an APP, and Len can shut down this forum.
You haven't been here very long, and I'm guessing you haven't spent much time on many forums before or you'd already know that every topic possible gets discussed weekly.
This forum (along with every forum) is going to be full of every type of hunter/shorter. Some shoot long range only, some shoot both and some are short range hunters. All of these opinions, experiences and people is what makes this forum.
Steve
