do tuners "cheat" barrel harmonics or is there another way to duplicate previous barrel
- Thread starter ARlife4me
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DOPE!
RichCoyle
Well-Known Member
Hunters don't fire hundreds of shots. They verify and go hunting.
Alex Wheeler
Well-Known Member
Now that I have a little more time Ill explaine this a little more. Tuners do work in the manner that they have some effect on the harmonics and can bring a load in and out of tuneish. But you can get into trouble. In my opinion the correct way to use one is to fully tune you barrel first. By that I mean you have extracted all the accuracy possible from your barrel. Then you adjust the tuner. If you improved your accuracy by any measurable amount then you didnt have the tune right. The best advice I can give is dont try to cheat the real tune. It will let you down. Unfortunately you have to put in the real work if you want a really good shooting rifle.
Trust the science lol. Honestly you see so much different stuff who knows what to believe. But I know Alex Wheelers rep and I believe he would use one if he thought they worked. Then again Cortina sells them. He's a pretty accomplished shooter.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Well just don't forget that 'tune' includes 2 separate attributes.
1. powder tune
2. barrel tune
The two do not often fall on top of each other. That is, best grouping is often not lowest SD from the powder.
You may not see this result at single fixed ranges, due to barrel compensation. So if you load develop at 600yds, for 600yd shooting, then a tuner won't help anything there. That's true.
But long range hunting includes a whole gamut of ranges.
An optimum and forgiving powder node here can help, as WE only get 1 shot.
A barrel 'might' compensate well across ranges. It 'might' not.
A good tuner should flatten/widen a barrel node.
So with a best producing powder node, and a good tuner setting, your hunting shot percentages should improve.
For those who gave it a good hunting try and it didn't work out,, then good try at least.
Perhaps there is some bizarre reason that it just didn't work for you.
1. powder tune
2. barrel tune
The two do not often fall on top of each other. That is, best grouping is often not lowest SD from the powder.
You may not see this result at single fixed ranges, due to barrel compensation. So if you load develop at 600yds, for 600yd shooting, then a tuner won't help anything there. That's true.
But long range hunting includes a whole gamut of ranges.
An optimum and forgiving powder node here can help, as WE only get 1 shot.
A barrel 'might' compensate well across ranges. It 'might' not.
A good tuner should flatten/widen a barrel node.
So with a best producing powder node, and a good tuner setting, your hunting shot percentages should improve.
For those who gave it a good hunting try and it didn't work out,, then good try at least.
Perhaps there is some bizarre reason that it just didn't work for you.
fseaman
Well-Known Member
I truly thank @Alex Wheeler and @DocUSMCRetired for sharing their insight and experience.
I had a thought that I don't remember being discussed, that is when the shooter does not or can not control the load.
This applies to rimfire and anyone who can not or chooses not to handload.
My case point is my Weatherby Vanguard in 223. It is from the slow twist era around 2010. Before I got my reloading equipment, I went through every "light bullet" factory ammo eventually settling on Superformance 53g V-Max. Still struggled for precision. Then I got a barrel tuner. It worked as described on the tin. Once handloading, I tried other loads but duplicating that factory load with no change to the tuner worked.
I remember trying a limb saver on a 270 Weatherby Magnum with a pencil barrel and 12 twist. It sort of worked but I eventually abandoned it in favor of handload Barnes TTSX 95 going very fast and using "hunting simulation" of one cold + dirty followed by one follow up.
We know that barrel devices can be used to tune. It might not be the appropriate tool for the handloader but what about the non-handloader, what do you think?
I had a thought that I don't remember being discussed, that is when the shooter does not or can not control the load.
This applies to rimfire and anyone who can not or chooses not to handload.
My case point is my Weatherby Vanguard in 223. It is from the slow twist era around 2010. Before I got my reloading equipment, I went through every "light bullet" factory ammo eventually settling on Superformance 53g V-Max. Still struggled for precision. Then I got a barrel tuner. It worked as described on the tin. Once handloading, I tried other loads but duplicating that factory load with no change to the tuner worked.
I remember trying a limb saver on a 270 Weatherby Magnum with a pencil barrel and 12 twist. It sort of worked but I eventually abandoned it in favor of handload Barnes TTSX 95 going very fast and using "hunting simulation" of one cold + dirty followed by one follow up.
We know that barrel devices can be used to tune. It might not be the appropriate tool for the handloader but what about the non-handloader, what do you think?
DocUSMCRetired
Well-Known Member
We did a tuner study in our lab on rimfire and found the same results as I mentioned before.
tuners are one of those things that should have to prove they do work, but everything I see is challenging people to prove they don't.
Until a well set up experimental design with large sample sizes shows they do I don't buy it. I am happy to change my mind on the subject, but especially with the latest AB research I just don't think they do anything.
My only experience with them is with a 300 win mag boss and you can turn that sucker all over the world and it doesn't change a thing with large sample sizes.
Until a well set up experimental design with large sample sizes shows they do I don't buy it. I am happy to change my mind on the subject, but especially with the latest AB research I just don't think they do anything.
My only experience with them is with a 300 win mag boss and you can turn that sucker all over the world and it doesn't change a thing with large sample sizes.
fseaman
Well-Known Member
This may have been what really helped my 223.
In the long run the 223 is getting a new barrel.
Doom2
Well-Known Member
Expanding a little bit on what Alex has so simply put I'll add this from an engineering analysis standpoint. The theory of adding an adjustable weight to the end of the barrel has a very minor effect on barrel vibration and varying the position of the weight has an even smaller effect on vibration. A tuner will not make a measurable difference in group size if the load is repeatable. Trying to show an improvement with the normal variations in dispersion would take a significant (i.e. Large) number of rounds shot in multiple tests.
I'll also add a comment on combination tuner-brakes. While recoil associated with muzzle blast has little or no effect on dispersion ( other than asymmetric forces on the bullet) it has an affect on how the shooter is going to react to its presence (Flinch). This is present in everyone to some extent. Any reduction in anticipated recoil will like improve any shooters consistency. It then is a reasonable assumption that a tuner-brake canresult in a reduction is dispersion simple due to the brake effect.
DocUSMCRetired
Well-Known Member
Just add a suppressor if you can, same effect.This may have been what really helped my 223.
In the long run the 223 is getting a new barrel.
DocUSMCRetired
Well-Known Member
And, I will say it again... Just add a suppressor if you can lol. It certainly helps with all of this.
I'd like to see a pencil barrel contoured to leave 3-4" of 1.25" bell at the muzzle
