Dialing vs. Holdover For Long Range Hunting

[985]

Mr. McClelland,

Very nice and thorough article. However, IF holding over at shorter distances work well, then why utilize a terribly busy reticle that resembles a fly swatter instead of a nice clean mil-dot or other MOA reticle?

My world is your world and the shooters that I know who have matured in their skill set are calling the gridded style reticle, the "shoot twice hit once reticle."

"Shoot Twice Hit Once."

In addition, when holding over, you (the shooter) are looking at a distorted image. IF you "True the trajectory," for holding over, (which is a non scientific term), and then return to crosshair / optical center and dial in your dope, your data will be incorrect because you "trued" (cheated the drag curve) for the hold over / distorted image.

Longer distances, as you specified, will most always have more than one wind / mirage to deal with. Shoot downhill on an angle with a 10 mph head wind and your drop will be greatly increased. If the shooter does not know how to negotiate that or isn't aware of the effect, the "Shoot Twice hit Once" gridded reticle, quickly becomes the "Shoot Four Times Hit Once, Maybe" gridded reticle.

Holding over with any reticle doesn't fix the lack of understanding, Gimmicks or a shooter's inexperience.

 

[Danehunter]

AAARRRGGGHHH!

WWB,

If your scope is such a *** that you get a "distorted image" by holding left, right, down, or up then you will ALSO get distortion moving the reticle in those directions by DIALING.

Holding eliminates mechanical errors of the gears and the human errors of dialing too much or too little. Plus holding is much faster than dialing.

The "shoot twice, hit once" comments are incorrect for a good shooter using holding.
If you're gonna miss by holding then you're gonna miss by dialing that same amount. What on earth makes you even think that dialing is more precise when all tests show that MOST scopes don't dial perfectly?

Go to The Precision Rifle Blog and look up Cal's extremely thorough, scientific and documented tests of 18 tactical scopes. There you will find what I'm saying about turrets not being precise is PROVEN in his tests.

Judas Priest man, use some reasoning instead of sticking with "That's how we do it at my shooting school" frame of mind.

Eric B.

 

[985]

Sorry brother, but you are wrong. Place a stick in a glass of water and watch how it bends away from the light source. The further from the surface, the greater the bend. The same principle occurs with the lenses of your scope. The further away from optical center, the greater the distortion.
There aren't two sides of an argument when the science is proven.
To you, this is like arguing religion. However, These are proven and accepted scientific facts.
It's just like someone who uses the corriolis routine of their ballistic software; (if one is using a handheld unit) it doesn't work, Ever.
This is because your handheld unit has a "fixed point processor." Fixed point processors are not capable of processing the long strings of mantissa digits. But you would probably argue that it can...
Again, sorry brother. My advice to you and the others is to get off of the gucci train. Stop using something that is just, "good enough." Last week at an awards ceremony for sniper of the year, another seasoned sniper said, "that guy who brought/ instructs the hold over method with the grided reticle has ruined at least three generations of snipers." His words not mine; however I couldn't have agreed with him more.

 

[985]

Oh , and one other thing. Someone who goes through my course(s) learns about "backlash" when dialing and how to Negotiate it. Do you know why there is backlash? In addition, the software that I utilize, "X-Ring" has an additional routine to counter it as well. IF you aren't aware of these issues and how to solve them, there's a whole lot more that you're missing.

 

[Danehunter]

Well WWB, I guess we'll have to "agree to disagree" on holding v.s. dialing.

I "know" that dialing moves the reticle thus losing the scope's optical center.

You "know" that holding is looking through distortion away form the scope's optical center.

Eric B.

 

[rcoody]

You guys are funny. I say whatever works for you is fine.

Now if you really want to settle this argument then why don't each of you put together a team and have a shootoff. The results should be interesting for all.

 

[985]

That's a Great idea!
In fact, IF you guys are interested, how do you feel about participating in a competition?
I'm more than happy to host it at my new venue in western Colorado. The lodging is 5 star as is the food, so its not on the cheap, however I promise you an awesome time at a 5 star facility. What do you think?

We can plan it for May? Please Get back with me if you're interested.

 

[acourvil]

What would be really interesting is to have a couple of guys each who are primarily holdover and primarily dial and have them all shoot both ways with the similar equipment on both flat and high angle shots, and see what the overall data looks like.

Honestly, I suspect that for most of us reading this thread, the differences actually caused by optical or mechanical differences in the two methods are probably an order of magnitude smaller than any variations we see caused by our technique and/or our estimates of wind and other environmental factors.

 

[985]

I have our students shoot both ways, and the difference is noticeable, especially before cheating the drag curve. When Shooting on angles the difference is very bold. However, I thinks its a great / cool idea to do it your way. Lets do it!

 

[rcoody]

I have our students shoot both ways, and the difference is noticeable, especially before cheating the drag curve. When Shooting on angles the difference is very bold. However, I thinks its a great / cool idea to do it your way. Lets do it!

Maybe i could.learn your holdover tecnique but i am kind of hooked on my rangefinder/kestrel combo. Only hold i use is windage when that first shkt goes awry. Elevaton is usually dead on.

I never rush a long shot and know inside 300 yrds what to do.

 

[985]

My holdover technique is a combat approach, and much different than precision hold overs, (which I don't believe in). But, IF you want to have some fun, come out!

 

[popeye]

I find this a very interesting topic that I am just beginning to learn about but I am a little disappointed in having to sort through all the chest thumping. kind of another version of 9mm vs 45acp it seems.

 

[985]

POPEYE...... Really?
Chest Thumping?
Come out and join us at the upcoming competition / friendly shoot.
Have some fun.

 

[popeye]

There is no doubt that you would have a wealth of knowledge and maybe someday I will. I'm just not at that level yet. I did my time in the military and LE but the science of even mid range shooting is pretty new to me. My son and I have built my rifle.and I'm working on my load now. I am trying to soak up all I can and no offense to you but I would like to master (or at least become proficient) with. It's hold over and dial up.