Dialing vs. Holdover For Long Range Hunting

[dig]

I dialed for years then tried the Horus reticle. I found it to be much faster and very accurate for my shooting level to about 3 mils after that it gets confusing to me, add in significant wind and I find it difficult to bracket say 3.5 elevation, 2.5 windage (and that's not much). I try and practice however the reticle does get confusing. In high wind I normally dial elevation and hold for wind. For shots inside approx 600 using the H59 reticle has defiantly helped me make quick shots I probably did not have time to dial for. Two New Mex Elk and a nice Mex Couse are fresh in memory. I know my drops on a few rifles. One in particular at 500 I simply hold 2 mils and I am good to go at my standard elevations. The more practice I get the more I like holding, the new reticles are much more precise than the old dots or footballs. I'm sure some one is going to run the numbers and tell me you can do this with a stadard duplex, not confidently for me.

I would have to agree given all being equal hold over with a good reticle has to be more accurate, maybe not as precise though. Now in a practical situation with a human behind the trigger I not convinced there is a significant difference given the variables. In a military situation, as much training and trigger time as these guys get these days I could really see the benefit of using say and H59. Given my time I will probably continue to use hold over inside a certain range and dial beyond, as stated many times at distance you normally have more time. Great debate, wish more people would try hold over.

 

[Barrelnut]

I use both. have a sporter weight 25-06 with a Zeiss RZ reticle works well out to 375-400 yards which is the practical limit for the load I use. I can actually dial it also, for smaller targets, if I choose.

For a couple of dedicated long range rifles, I dial, except for a 300-400 yard shot where the MOA reticle works fairly well for quick shots a big game.

BUT for the groundhog guys, they are right, it is dial all the way. It's a different game than playing like you are shooting a human in the chest and getting some kind of kick out of it. War is not nearly as glamorous as it seems. Sorry just my poke at the "sniper" craze. I just shoot for something to eat.

 

[Greyfox]

I have used both methods, and had success with both. For the wide range of hunting shots I have encountered over the years at the longer ranges I find that adjusting turrets with a proven scope is far more practical and certain. After sitting on my stand for 5 days, eight hours a day in 5 degree temps, and on the last afternoon having a good buck show up at 750 yards with a 6 mph full value wind at last shooting light, against a dark background, try putting the chosen Horus reticle(or facsimile) on that bucks vital spot..... I would choose dialing those turrets and centering a clean crosshair EVERY time! But to each their own.

 

[BergerBoy]

I'll give you faster, but if holding over was more accurate then dialing most folks shooting long range competitions would be doing it, and that is definitely not the case.

There are quite a few quality scopes that are consistently repeatable, although many of the popular hunting scopes are probably not at that level of quality.

I was told this is UNTRUE by the owner of Horus Vision last year at SHOT.
The H59 and a few other reticles were made bc of RELIABILITY not speed. "ALL scopes break down but looking through a quality perfectly laser etched reticle will never wear-out or brake down...." said Dennis Sammut All scopes are mechanical and degrade after time no matter who makes them.
Even if you look at Todd Hoddnet- if he has a long shot... he will hold as much as he can and dial the least amount if he runs out of reticle hold.
I agree with them but some reticles are a little too busy for me. I never hold for wind bc it's too fluid and changes in an instant but I mostly dial elevation. What ever puts rounds on target rounds.
JMO

 

[985]

There is Nothing Faster on Earth than a person that is trained properly with a MilDot reticle, Except maybe the dog ears and post sighting system utilized on the M1 Garand's. If you want to know why, you'll have to take a class at the MSC or find someone that has been in theater from that era.

For Nearly 60 years, standards and protocols were set in stone from lessons learned.
Then, new technology came along from excited civilian enthusiasts. The standards became corrupt and the law of primacy took over.

Snell's law of refraction has been around since the early 900's, from the old, ancient courts of Baghdad. That law states that sunlight has its own frequency. When it collides with a solid such as glass or water, the light rays get bent downwards. (Place a stick in water and watch it bend away from the light source). Add magnification to the equation and there is no way to negotiate it or get around it. Hold over on your target, especially when aiming up or down on an angle, and you are theoretically lifting the image of the target with your holdover mark.

This is an absolute. There isn't any way whatsoever to work around this issue and I guarantee you that every Astrophysicist at NASA, JPL & MIT are thoroughly educated about it.

And if you don't mind, please allow me to steer you a bit with rifle scopes breaking down. When you are utilizing a sloped picatinny rail, lets say 20 moa, you do not want to store your scope for long periods of time with the the reticle set at zero. This places pressure on the springs which will fatigue them over time. I remove the pressure from off of the springs by taking the 20 moa out of the adjustment, returning the erector tube to its center.

 

[acourvil]

And if you don't mind, please allow me to steer you a bit with rifle scopes breaking down. When you are utilizing a sloped picatinny rail, lets say 20 moa, you do not want to store your scope for long periods of time with the the reticle set at zero. This places pressure on the springs which will fatigue them over time. I remove the pressure from off of the springs by taking the 20 moa out of the adjustment, returning the erector tube to its center.

I agree with what you said up until this.

A properly heat treated spring does not fatigue from constant pressure within a normal range, it fatigues from cyclic loading. And the erector springs are loaded even when centered, although the load is less at that point. Doing what you suggest just adds extra cycles to the springs, although the effect is likely to be so minor as to not be meaningful.

 

[Broz]

This is the bottom line truth. And the reason dialing works for my needs.

 

[985]

That's OK. You can disagree with me all you want. However, (just to let you know) you also disagree with the Director of Repair of Two Tier 1 Scope manufacturers, one of which supplies their scopes to the US Military.

Don't buy into the Bologna.

Regards,

Ward W Brien

 

[Barrelnut]

Here's a 2011 poll on the subject. Seems dialing is way more popular. It also seems more popular for manufactures and in the market place. Ya gotta take notice of things like that. Dialing is probably popular for a very good reason.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...-turret-graduated-reticle-holdover-etc-72431/

 

[985]

Sometimes "Polls" get it right. However I like the facts.

 

[acourvil]

Supporting your opinion about spring fatigue by reference to unnamed experts at unnanmed companies suggests less than a complete reliance on facts.

 

[BergerBoy]

And if you don't mind, please allow me to steer you a bit with rifle scopes breaking down. When you are utilizing a sloped picatinny rail, lets say 20 moa, you do not want to store your scope for long periods of time with the the reticle set at zero. This places pressure on the springs which will fatigue them over time. I remove the pressure from off of the springs by taking the 20 moa out of the adjustment, returning the erector tube to its center.[/QUOTE]

Thank you and that is a good point. As I understand it, the best image you will get from your scope is when it is set at 0 or directly in the middle of your elevation and windage. I was always cautioned by coworkers and friends not to use a 40 MOA rail bc the quality of the image will degrade..... makes sense to me but I don't think I am that good to have it effect me one way or the other.

Thanks

 

[985]

acourvil: You believe that you have a solid understanding about what can or will cause spring fatigue, so why don't you humor some of us here on this thread and try an experiment. Slip your turrets all the way up until it bottoms out, and leave it there for a week. If you're really confident about your knowledge of this subject matter, leave it there for one month. Then, without slipping the turrets back to zero, send five rounds downrange. Then return to your original zero and report. Are you up for it?
Just be advised that if you do this, you will probably be sending your scope in for repairs. Good luck on your decision.

 

[acourvil]

If you have a factual or legitimate theoretical reason for disagreeing with my statement that a properly heat treated spring does not fatigue from constant pressure within a normal range, but rather fatigues from cyclic loading, I would be interested in hearing it. Telling me to do something outside the normal design range doesn't have any value as a test for that statement, and your derisive tone doesn't do anything for your credibility.