Defiance Ti-X

[akmtnhnt]

This is very interesting. I was looking at the Ti-X especially with 75 bolt, now I'm not sure. I typically run on the hot side of loads so TI might not be the best.

You have to decide what ~6oz is worth to you.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Few questions for ya. What's the total weight of the titanium rifle setup? The ss setup? Were you shooting the same exact rounds through both? Or did you hand load rounds for both? Cbto same for rounds for both guns? Freebore the same? Jump?

Most of this info is available in previous posts.
I had to hand load for both separately to find max pressure, obviously, and it was a very wide disparity.
CBTO same, same reamer. Good precision with the barrel with BOTH actions. But a solid 200fps advantage to the SS, with better precision. No contest. No doubt.
No BS.!

 

[Longtine88]

Phil your assumption on the slower velocity on the TI action is sound and true. TI will expand with pressure. Hence pressure lost at the action hence slows the velocity of the bullet down the barrel as you well know. I personally have not played with a TI action. I have friends that have. I asked one of them yesterday anfter reading your post about what he has seen and he said the same. He suspects he is losing 100 fps because of it. He did say he would not own another one. Like you I believe Brux and Krieger barrels are tough to beat and are the most consistent from experience. I can chamber two B or K barrels with the same caliber and use the same reamer and set the same headspace even on different actions and they will both pressure out pretty much same point and the loads will end up almost the same. I personally have two 6mm CM's chamber exactly the same and two 7mm saums, same barrel but two different actions and shoot the same load in both. The saums are are in the same action.

 

[snox801]

I went probably 500 on the Ti I had. 2 barrels gave the same result. So so precision and lethargic velocity.
Took barrel #2, mated it to a Defiance Deviant, and not only was it significantly faster, it shoots better.
This group was at 200 a few days ago.
6.5 Max
144 Berger LRHT
3299avg
A 200fps difference in maximum velocity, 3350 vs 3150 basically.

So I've got 2 of the Pierce Ti action when they also had ti bolts. One long action 30 sm and one short 6.5 creedmore. My brother also has a long action.

After loading mine and another ti action in 6.5 creedmore along with 6-7 steel actions. I can tell you that you should not give up any speed in fact the fastest one I have is Ti. And the slowest is steel. It's probably more in the chamber throat dimension than the action.
The only thing I have noticed people say and have experienced was you get a harder bolt lift early. With that said it is accompanied by one other pressure sign like normal. Flat primer or extraction marks.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Hmmmm. A harder bolt lift, earlier than SS.
Accompanied by flat primers OR brass flow.
Sounds familiar.

 

[snox801]

I can't clarify the statement "same S/N barrel, 2 different actions"

Same reamer. There is no way in hell the action wasn't at least partly responsible for a 150-200fps increase! Come on guys. I'm going to find my notes but we are talking multiple grains of powder increase here. That size velocity gain is major.

Same brass, bullet lot, powder keg etc.

Phil I have to disagree. I have a lot of experience with ti actions from Pierce and the old original Remington ti actions. Over a very wide array of different actions all in 6.5 creed all done with same reamer all produce different velocity. And as stated fastest one is a ti action. Slowest is steel. I run the same components on them. As as a simple counter point it was a full grain lower powder charge on the slowest to the fastest. I have come to think that we just have to many variables in everything else to say it's just the Ti action. Couple that with the fact that my Ti creedmore is on the very fast side of creedmores with 22" tubes and my 30 sm sits right where everyone seems to be for speed. I can only offer more data points that counter your points.

 

[snox801]

Hmmmm. A harder bolt lift, earlier than SS.
Accompanied by flat primers OR brass flow.
Sounds familiar.

Yes any people have stated that. Is it pressure? Or gulling? The fact that coating and hbn has eliminated that problem for some leads to believe it's gulling which is not pressure.

Mine are coated and I run hbn on the lugs. And as stated my first sign of pressure was at a higher speed than the steel actions. Most end up with the exact same load and speed. Point is my absolute fastest also has the shortest barrel and is a Ti action. And slowest by a good margin is a steel. I have loaded for both the Pierce steel, and Ti. Also many others. Not sure it's the action.

If you want the lightest weight TI is the way to go. If you don't then no sense in it. But if someone wants to cut weight in that area to add weight in what they consider a more important area then I think they give up nothing more than some extra money.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Phil I have to disagree. I have a lot of experience with ti actions from Pierce and the old original Remington ti actions. Over a very wide array of different actions all in 6.5 creed all done with same reamer all produce different velocity. And as stated fastest one is a ti action. Slowest is steel. I run the same components on them. As as a simple counter point it was a full grain lower powder charge on the slowest to the fastest. I have come to think that we just have to many variables in everything else to say it's just the Ti action. Couple that with the fact that my Ti creedmore is on the very fast side of creedmores with 22" tubes and my 30 sm sits right where everyone seems to be for speed. I can only offer more data points that counter your points.

No problem, keep using them if they work as you require.
For me it's a performance killer, coupled with higher cost.

 

[snox801]

No problem, keep using them if they work as you require.
For me it's a performance killer, coupled with higher cost.

Hmmmm. A harder bolt lift, earlier than SS.
Accompanied by flat primers OR brass flow.
Sounds familiar.

Since this was edited to add the flat primers or brass flow I should just clarify. The knock on Ti was heavier bolt lift before any other signs. For me by the time one showed other signs showed. Same with steel. The heavy bolt lift may be gull not pressure.
We can chalk this one up as "your mileage may vary" ?

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Yes any people have stated that. Is it pressure? Or gulling? The fact that coating and hbn has eliminated that problem for some leads to believe it's gulling which is not pressure.

I am not sure about gulling, but loose primer pockets and expansion at the .200 line greater than .001 is a real indication of over pressure. I went above this to attempt velocity achieved in many 6.5 SS rifles with shorter barrels. I could not exceed their performance with a larger case, longer barrel, and a Ti action.
I don't coat bullets. I have no need.
With the SS action, the shorter and smaller Sherman Short Cases are at a significant speed disadvantage, as they should be, against a Sherman Max.
Now I'm running closer to large diameter long action 6.5 velocities, in a case a LOT smaller. In some published info I've seen, I'm exceeding them.
The capacity difference in a Sherman Short and Sherman Max is approximately 5grs.
71 vs 76grs

 

[snox801]

I am not sure about gulling, but loose primer pockets and expansion at the .200 line greater than .001 is a real indication of over pressure. I went above this to attempt velocity achieved in many 6.5 SS rifles with shorter barrels. I could not exceed their performance with a larger case, longer barrel, and a Ti action.
I don't coat bullets. I have no need.
With the SS action, the shorter and smaller Sherman Cases are at a significant speed disadvantage, as they should be, against a Sherman Max.
Now I'm running closer to large diameter long action 6.5 velocities, in a case a LOT smaller. In some published info I've seen, I'm exceeding them.
The capacity difference in a Sherman Short and Sherman Max is approximately 5grs.
71 vs 76grs

Well that's definitely not gulling but still don't think it's a titanium action issue. So far you have a total sample size of 2. Myself I have a sample of 5. Both my Sherman's are able to reach the speeds rich said they should in Ti actions and match what others have seen.
But I have the most done with creedmore.

I would think that something like the 30SM with over 80gr of powder would also show what you are seeking if it was indeed the action.

Hopefully we get more people to chime in today. Because if people on the fence went by your two sample sizes they should avoid Ti if going by my sample size and the should avoid the ss action. Both for the same reason of lack of speed compared to others.

 

[snox801]

For the record I don't coat bullets either. As stated I have titanium bolts on my builds also. I heard all the horror stories of gulling before I had mine built so I do run hbn on the bolt lugs. That was simply to prevent the gulling and bolt drag.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Ok, I think I'm learning now, gulling is what I've known as galling.

 

[akmtnhnt]

For the record I don't coat bullets either. As stated I have titanium bolts on my builds also. I heard all the horror stories of gulling before I had mine built so I do run hbn on the bolt lugs. That was simply to prevent the gulling and bolt drag.

Galling is the word you're looking for.