Dead soft brass!

[JimmyCP]

Also if you look at the picture in my profile, that new factory brass that I would consider over torched. I loaded light loads in it first round, neck sized fired 2nd round neck sized 3rd at full load. 4th re tempered neck sized. 6 reload full resize. Currently on 10 th reload, tempered 4 times about to full length resize again.

Pushing 278 grn 3140 fps. No issues.

 

[theosmithjr]

On the "how I was able to mess up that many cases with out figuring it out", I was doing load development for 3 rifles, a SAAMI 28 Nosler, a Match chambered 28 Nosler and a 30-28 Nosler wildcat. I was going through a lot of cases. The majority of the annealing mistake happened in one long annealing session where I process the cases from all three rifles using the wrong process.

The reality is it happened and from what I have read on other forums there are others who have made that mistake as well.

One individual noted the issue and was told by another how to fix it. He was told to reheat the cases and fast cool them in water. We know that does not work with Brass, only Steel. As I learned, and hope this other individual did as well, that over annealing causes Dead soft brass because you burn off some of the metals that make up the brass.

This example and many of the YouTube videos then show there is a lack of knowledge in our community on the correct process.

My cases are ALWAYS in a ROTATING PAN OF WATER WHILE THE TORCH IS ON! NEVER HAD A PROBLEM IN 30 YEARS OF ANNEALING!
Theosmithjr

 

[JimmyCP]

Up to you if you dump your brass. If it was me I would make sure it was junk before I tossed 700.00 investment in the recycling bin.
I wouldn't rely on what I'm telling you or anyone else. Make sure YOU know. Whole lot of people are going to give you advice but we don't have the brass in our hands.

 

[hunter0528]

Hunter0528....
If that is inserting the case into molten lead????
Wow....thats gonna hurt after a bit....

Only until you feel the heat in your finger tips. Does not really get that hot.

 

[DartonJager]

I decided to try annealing because two calibers I shoot brass can either be very hard to find or impossible and when available VERY expensive.
I'm no expert and have made enough mistakes and thankfully learned from them that I realized I had better get well educated on how to properly anneal brass or I knew I'd be doing it wrong and end up ruining expensive hard or impossible to find brass.

Unless I'm incorrect and anyone who knows feel free to correct me after reading a mind numbing amount of information on annealing brass it occured to me propper annealing of brass came down to three essential factors:
#1-Tempriture
#2-Time
#3-Exposing the only the correct area of brass to the annealing process that needs to be annealed

I researched annealing machines and processes as much as I could and saw and considered most if not all the available commercially made annealing machines.
Annealing systems I found were one of three methods
>Heat by way of torch
>Heat by way of induction
>Heat by way of a molten liquid
I simply couldn't justify let alone afford an induction annealer so that left torch or molten liquid methods.

I chose molten salt or "salt bath annealing" as its commonly referred to as it was the only method I could afford that allowed me near fool proof precise temperature control of the annealing process. I already had a very expensive very accurate Fluke digital temperature meter and probe. I also realized SBA comes with some serious safety concerns but I also had access to all the PPE I would ever need for free. So in the end I choose and use SBA and anneal my brass for 4-5 seconds at near constant 825*/F +/- 5-8*/F.

So far it has worked very well. To test prior to full commitment I took test brass that had 3-5 firings and annealed them all. I then annealed after every 3rd firing and and are one away from have 6 additional firings and three annealings on my test brass.
If no issues occur I will begin annealing all my brass with this method.

I choose SBA because it was very simple, precise, was the most affordable annealing method that allowed for a preset and precisely control temperature, and consequently posed the lowest possible risk of over annealing my brass.

 

[Frank Kalisz]

Regarding "Salt Bath Annealing", do you have to clean the brass cartridges after they are annealed? Do yhey need to be washed with the stainless steel pins, is water rinse sufficient, or do you have to do anything at all? I'm curious. Thank you.

 

[Barrelnut]

I have a question about SBA too. Do you have to clean the brass first to remove the carbon inside the neck? Will the carbon in the neck gradually contaminate the salt, if not removed before annealing? Thanks.

 

[RandyinVa]

My cases are ALWAYS in a ROTATING PAN OF WATER WHILE THE TORCH IS ON! NEVER HAD A PROBLEM IN 30 YEARS OF ANNEALING!
Theosmithjr

Phone took a crap. Out till Wed when I can replace it. reach me by email at [email protected]. We will make arrangements for Skype or FaceTime.

 

[BoatTail]

This was the other video I liked as he showed different methods.

 

[DartonJager]

To answer your questions about cleaning prior to and after annealing, prior to annealing fired un-processed cases, I always clean them in my vibratory cleaner (crushed walnut hull) till bright and shiny, give them a quick bath in a tumbler with stainless pins and dawn fallowed by a good rinsing with straight hot tap water, dry with hair dryer then de-prim with Lee universal de-primer. Once annealed I then prep my brass as usual which includes polishing the inside case neck/mouth with 0000 steel wool and cleaning out the primer pocket.
I have no idea if this is the best order to do things it just makes sense to me to have clean brass prior to annealing.
I do one thing a bit differently after I remove each piece of brass from the molten salt I dip it into water to remove any residual liquid salt that might have stuck to the case.
Keep in mind at this point I am in my opinion a low volume shooter and reloader. I have never prepped more than 50 pieces of brass at a time. I never process more brass at any time that I cannot for 100% certain finish to where they are ready to be reloaded. Except for unifying the primer pockets and trimming the brass, I use the same exact brass preparation steps every time I reload. I will add I have stopped neck sizing and went to using Redding BO sizing dies and Lee Collet dies.
I didn't see a dramatic increase in accuracy but I did see an increase in consistent accuracy with unexplained flyers all but eliminated. I'm going to give Norma brass a try this summer to see if that helps my accuracy.

Please by all means if anyone sees fault with or can suggest improvement to my method by all means say so as I would appreciate it.

 

[Dirtrax]

Good video. The metallurgy sources I have consulted indicated temps between 700*/800* hence my use of 750* tempilaq but I'm not going to argue the point.
I will say that since I started using an ultrasonic cleaner the color indications on the brass itself have changed. Given that I'm using citric acid which passivates the brass I'm thinking it may play a role. Nonetheless I continue to use the same time/temp process and the results remain the same.

 

[Barrelnut]

That sounds like a a sound process to me.
Reason I asked about cleaning out the carbon in the neck before dipping in the salt is that I like to leave the carbon in the neck. I tend to no longer clean my brass in water. For a fired case, I clean out side the neck with 0000 steel wool. Then run a neck brush thru the neck a few times. I then torch anneal and lay out on a dry towel to cool.
Would not mind trying SBA sometime, but I don't really want to go back to cleaning all of the carbon from inside the neck before I anneal.

 

[Dirtrax]

The ultrasonic cleaner removes the carbon and drying is accomplished with a blow dryer or a dehydrator. The cleaner I use looks for all the world to be the exact unit Lyman sell for $200 cost $40 on amazon. Carbon is a thing of the past. I suppose this is a subject for a different thread though.

 

[Frank Kalisz]

I'm a big fan of YouTube videos from "GunBlue490" as shown above. I used that particular video as basis for my rotating water pan torch annealing. I might even consider the melted salt method some other time, but my wife tends to get grouchier that normal when I spend too much money on my hobby.