Dangerous Reloading Practice

[Brathany]

So when do we get to annealing primed brass?

 

[Critter Picker]

That sounds like a blast!

 

[big johnson]

I was at a shoot during covid, we were at a venders booth looking for some R16 which he didn't have. There was a guy looking at the table and he told me that he mixed R15 and R17 50-50 to make R16. Everyone laughed and his shooting buddy said they mixed the two together, started on the low end, no problems. Both looked 1/2 a bubble off plumb.

 

[Critter Picker]

So if you mix 148 pounds of Accurate #2 can you make 296?

 

[lancetkenyon]

So when do we get to annealing primed brass?

I've done it...

 

[Brathany]

I've done it...

Honey shush…

 

[Teri Anne]

I read a lot of blogs about reloading, always want to learn more and new things people have discovered. Sometimes I read things that just make me shake my head and go "HUH?" Like the guy on a CA blog claiming he is getting 4300 fps from his 223 AI shooting 55 grain pills and hitting PDs at 800 yards consistently. Yup, got to try his load.

The following is not meant as an attack on anyone, it is only to make people think about the un-intended consequences when reloading ammo.

Awhile back I read a post from a careless reloader. He posted a picture bragging about how shiny and clean his reloads looked after tumbling for over 20 hours. He stated the ammo was put in the tumbler one evening and he forgot about it. When he got home from work the next day, he discovered they had be running for excess of 20 hours. Eek!

I immediately posted my response: DO NOT SHOOT THAT AMMO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! I gave him a brief explanation about the danger. Man did I get grief!

Responses ranged from: I've been doing that for years! Ammo manufactures tumble their loaded ammo! You don't know what you are talking about. ETC.

My answers to these responses were: If you have been doing this for years, you are very lucky and I'm pretty sure you accuracy was not impressive. Ammo manufactures do not tumble; they use vibratory systems for a very short time. I think I am a pretty knowledgeable reloader, been doing it since I was 14, 70 now.

For the last couple of months, this has been weighing on my mind and decided to expand on my explanation to him with an experiment to show what can happen by tumbling loaded ammo. This is in the hopes that no one else will do this.

This is second hand from a fellow shooter that does not lie or exaggerate. His father purchased some cheap reloaded 243 ammo for his 788 Remington (one of the strongest actions at the time) at a gun show. He too was impressed by how shinny it was.

First round that was fired, destroyed the gun. Bulged the action and barrel to the point they couldn't pull the barrel, had to be machined out. Bolt was seized in the action; stock was split, scope mount blown off, etc. His father was lucky he didn't get the bolt in his face. Had it been a lessor gun, he probably would have received some major injuries beyond the face burns he got. What happened? . He's trying to find the pictures of the gun, been about 10 years ago

When they got home and pulled some of the bullets to attempt to determine what powder was used. They discovered the powder was no longer granular, it was DUST!

I personally witnessed a 270 win destroyed by ammo loaded with ball powder left sitting in the sun on a hot day, not pretty. To this day, I avoid ball powder.

So I decided to run a small experiment to show what happens to powder in this scenario. First I don't think there is any danger of a round going off, primer takes a lot harder impact to set it off.

I placed 10 rounds of '06 loaded with IMR 4064 that was loaded about a month ago in a tumbler with crushed walnut hull. I pulled 2 rounds out at 12 hour increments. Each round was marked with the number of hours they had been tumbled.

After 2 ½ days (60 hours) of tumbling, 1 round from each time period had the bullets pulled using a collet puller and the powder dumped out on white paper along with the powder from one round that had not been tumbled. All rounds were from the same batch.

I did not get the same result of dust, but I did find the kernels were slightly different color at each increment. The biggest thing I found was the powder was impacted together tighter with each increment. The un-tumbled powder poured out cleanly; at 12 hours I had to give it light tap to dump it out. After 24 hours, I had to use a small screw driver to dislodge the powder as it was packed in hard. At 60 hour, I had to dig the powder out .

It's hard to see from the attached photos the difference in the powder, but I could see a difference between each increment. I did see some small flakes that looked coating coming off? I believe as the powder kernels rubbed against each other, they slowly changed. It doesn't take much to understand/realize how this drastically changed the burn characteristics.

I then poured powder from the remaining 5 rounds plus one un-tumbled round onto a board. To show the difference, they were lit, WOW! I tried to video the burn, but both tries did not show the difference in the video. I certainly could tell the difference. The 60 hours rounds were brighter, faster, and taller flame. I may do this again and video with a better camera instead of my phone.

Powder manufactures go through a lot of effort to create coatings to control the burn rate of their powders. IMHO, tumbling the powder changes the powder.

I know there are people that load just to hear their gun go bang, I don't think most of us here are that way. I personally load for accuracy and performance. If I want to make noise, a pack of firecrackers is a lot cheaper.

Beyond the dangerous part, going through all the trouble to prep your cases, buy the best components, weigh powder, why in the world would you think that tumbling a loaded round would not change the way it shoots. I was taught by my mentor at an early age, the secret to accuracy is consistency.

In closing, I would like to say "If we are ever at the range or hunting together and you have ammo you have tumbled, please let me know so I can move a couple hundred yards away from you!"

Randy Tidwell

I have been loading since the early 70s and during all that time have never tumbled loaded ammo. Tumbling to clean brass is strictly for cleaning new or fired brass prior to reloading. Nowhere in any loading manual or information have I ever found anything about tumbling loaded ammo. As for ball powder, ball powder is safe as any other powder, providing you treat it like other powders and use common sense. Back in the late 1970s, I was shooting a match across the National Match Course at the Racine County Line Range in Racine, WI. This was when all powders were temperature sensitive. (I still believe that powders, even that where temperature is not a consideration). Try shooting your rifle at 80 or 90 degrees, then shoot the same load at 30 degrees. I've tried it and there is a significant bullet drop in the colder weather because of the difference in temperature. Anyway, back to the range. We started shooting around 8am, There were 4 relays shooting on 20 firing points, so it was taking quite a long time between the different events. On, the 200 and 300 yard lines the temperature was rising as we moved farther back. A shooter firing a Remington 700 match rifle, (I was shooting a NM M14) was two firing points from where I was. At the shorter ranges we all carried our ammo with us and as temps rose during the day had to make the expected sight changes because of the temperature. Note at this time, all the ammo was with us, not stored in ammo cans or the trunk of a car, only the cardboard boxes it came in. Our relay got to the 600 yard line around 1pm. The temperatures had risen into the high 90s with clear skies and a very bright and hot sun beating down on us. The guy on the other firing point had been shooting for quite a few years and had developed different loads for the 200 and 300 yard shooting and a hotter load, near max for the 600 yard line. When it was our time to shoot he went to his car and got his 600 yard ammo out of the trunk. It had been in the trunk baking in the sun for hours. Who knows what the temp in the trunk was, probably 140 or more degrees. At 600 yards, we shoot slow fire prone, one shot per minute, 20 rounds in 20 minutes for record with an additional two sighters for an additional 2 minutes. We had just started shooting the sighters. His first shot, he made a comment that the shot was a lot higher than he expected. (Indicating a much higher bullet speed down range) He made an appropriate sight change and on the second sighting shot his rifle exploded. The action burst, the bolt flew out to the side, the stock was broken and the barrel (match grade heavy barrel) slightly bulged about three inches from the chamber. He was lucky. Wearing his safety glasses, he only received minor cuts and bruises to his face, his eyes saved by the glasses. His max loads, super heated by the sun and storage in the trunk of his car caused a massive over pressure. He had loaded his ammo, 308 Win with 168 gr match bullets and powder at the max load for the combination. The powder he was using was IMR and very temperature sensitive, as was all powder back in those days. It didn't matter what powder he might have used. If it was loaded to the max pressure the chances are that there was going to be a happening, and not a good one at that.
I use Winchester 760 ball powder in a few of my loads, particularly the 338 Win Mag. It's not loaded anywhere near max but my rifle loves it and with 210 gr Nosler Partitions will punch clover leaf or smaller groups all day.
The fact that the extruded powder pulverized because of the tumbling after being loaded had nothing to do with the overall safety of the powder it was loaded with. The issue had absolutely no bearing on the performance of ball or flake powders. If you stay within the published guidelines by the powder manufacturer, and don't load to max, especially if shooting when it's hot out, you should never run into an issue. Shooting over the published load is never safe.

 

[levers4life]

This happened in the late 80's. Dad was tumbling some loaded pistol ammo with crushed pecan shell to clean the tarnish off. Left the tumbler running out in the shed. About 2am we awoke to what sounded like fireworks going off in the back yard, we had a fire in the shed and that ammo was cooking off! We called the local volunteer fire department, several members of which lived in the 'hood. They refused to enter the shed citing the danger of loaded ammo going off (and who can blame them?). Dad stuck his head in with the water hose and quickly extinguished the flames. The weight of that loaded ammo had caused it to sink to the bottom of the plastic tumbler bowl, the electric motor started heating up and melted the bottom of the bowl eventually igniting the plastic. The burning plastic now mixed with crushed pecan shell flowed down the countertop and cooked off several rounds. No real damage done, just a ruined bench top and some embarrassment. We found the bullets later, some on the counter, some on the floor. The brass split and luckily didn't have enough pressure to push them far. The Volunteer Fire Dept. guys hung around for coffee afterwards.
Not a put it in your firearm kind of issue but please don't tumble without at least baby-sitting it!

 

[Mark37082]

I just don't get it. Why tumble loaded ammo? I like clean and shiny brass, but never even considered tumbling loaded rounds. Call me cautious or scared, but I avoid poking the bear when dealing explosive materials.

 

[Critter Picker]

I call you smart. I'll tumble before and after sizing,but loaded ammo,I don't think so.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

A few people are missing the point of this experiment. Even though I didn't get the results I expected, it clearing showed an effect of tumbling loaded ammo. The powder changed color and packed together. I will be doing more experiments after hunting season (I'm sitting in a deer stand right now). I intend to tumble just the powder for the same time frames and look the kernels with a microscope. I'm also do it with a different powder, maybe some 3031. It been suggested I do this again and crono to compare results. Not me, too dangerous for this guy! Plus, it would be useless data, because i would never consider pulling the trigger on a round that had been tumbled,IMHO. I havn't pulled the trigger on a factory round in 40 years.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

I have been loading since the early 70s and during all that time have never tumbled loaded ammo. Tumbling to clean brass is strictly for cleaning new or fired brass prior to reloading. Nowhere in any loading manual or information have I ever found anything about tumbling loaded ammo. As for ball powder, ball powder is safe as any other powder, providing you treat it like other powders and use common sense. Back in the late 1970s, I was shooting a match across the National Match Course at the Racine County Line Range in Racine, WI. This was when all powders were temperature sensitive. (I still believe that powders, even that where temperature is not a consideration). Try shooting your rifle at 80 or 90 degrees, then shoot the same load at 30 degrees. I've tried it and there is a significant bullet drop in the colder weather because of the difference in temperature. Anyway, back to the range. We started shooting around 8am, There were 4 relays shooting on 20 firing points, so it was taking quite a long time between the different events. On, the 200 and 300 yard lines the temperature was rising as we moved farther back. A shooter firing a Remington 700 match rifle, (I was shooting a NM M14) was two firing points from where I was. At the shorter ranges we all carried our ammo with us and as temps rose during the day had to make the expected sight changes because of the temperature. Note at this time, all the ammo was with us, not stored in ammo cans or the trunk of a car, only the cardboard boxes it came in. Our relay got to the 600 yard line around 1pm. The temperatures had risen into the high 90s with clear skies and a very bright and hot sun beating down on us. The guy on the other firing point had been shooting for quite a few years and had developed different loads for the 200 and 300 yard shooting and a hotter load, near max for the 600 yard line. When it was our time to shoot he went to his car and got his 600 yard ammo out of the trunk. It had been in the trunk baking in the sun for hours. Who knows what the temp in the trunk was, probably 140 or more degrees. At 600 yards, we shoot slow fire prone, one shot per minute, 20 rounds in 20 minutes for record with an additional two sighters for an additional 2 minutes. We had just started shooting the sighters. His first shot, he made a comment that the shot was a lot higher than he expected. (Indicating a much higher bullet speed down range) He made an appropriate sight change and on the second sighting shot his rifle exploded. The action burst, the bolt flew out to the side, the stock was broken and the barrel (match grade heavy barrel) slightly bulged about three inches from the chamber. He was lucky. Wearing his safety glasses, he only received minor cuts and bruises to his face, his eyes saved by the glasses. His max loads, super heated by the sun and storage in the trunk of his car caused a massive over pressure. He had loaded his ammo, 308 Win with 168 gr match bullets and powder at the max load for the combination. The powder he was using was IMR and very temperature sensitive, as was all powder back in those days. It didn't matter what powder he might have used. If it was loaded to the max pressure the chances are that there was going to be a happening, and not a good one at that.
I use Winchester 760 ball powder in a few of my loads, particularly the 338 Win Mag. It's not loaded anywhere near max but my rifle loves it and with 210 gr Nosler Partitions will punch clover leaf or smaller groups all day.
The fact that the extruded powder pulverized because of the tumbling after being loaded had nothing to do with the overall safety of the powder it was loaded with. The issue had absolutely no bearing on the performance of ball or flake powders. If you stay within the published guidelines by the powder manufacturer, and don't load to max, especially if shooting when it's hot out, you should never run into an issue. Shooting over the published load is never safe.

Teri, I'm a BR shooter also and we routinly adjust our llease to temp changes to stay in tune. That's is why very few of us preload at home.

The 270 I personally witness blow up was due to heat. The gentleman left his open plastic box open on the bench in direct sunlite on a hot day when we broke for lunch. I told him to put it away. He said it's OK. When we went back to shooting, the round he picked up was so hot he dropped it. He then picked up and tossed it in the action so it wouldn't burn his fingers. I yelled, don't shoot that. He blew me off and pulled the trigger. Gun exploded, action swelled, bulged the barrel, split the stock, blew the floor plate off. Only thing that saved his arm from the floor plate was an expensive watch that was shattered.

He gave me the left over round to pull the bullets. The ball powder was almost melted, it was gummy and sticky, never seen that with stick powder, hence I don't shoot ball powder. My choice because I don't trust it.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

OP, when you say "Tumbling", are you talking just throwing loaded rounds in a rotary tumbler (like a rock tumbler or wet tumbler) with no polishing media? Or into a vibratory tumbler with walnut shell or corn cob media?

I can't see seating depth or run out effected by a vibratory tumbler with tumbling media unless you are running .0005" neck tension or less. Even then, highly unlikely. The rounds don't bang against each other. They slowly, and with a lot of buffer material, roll in the vibratory tumbler in all the media which does the actual cleaning.

I have ran loaded rounds a few times in a vibratory tumbler and walnut media for 15-30 minutes to get the sizing lube off when I forgot to size the body of the case and they needed a hint of sizing to chamber properly (my stupid 6CM dies were sent wrong from Redding as a neck sizer instead of a FL die). I saw no effect to POI from 300 to 1400 yards. Meaning I highly doubt velocities or pressures increased by doing so.

Lance, the rounds were tumbled with walnut Hull. Vibratory is kinder to brass, but will still have a effect on loaded ammo.

I shoot a lot of thin necked PPC, I've had tumblers ding the necks, never had any damage from the Vibrator.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

I wouldn't call my worst enemy a democrate, that's too much of an insult for anyone!