Dangerous Reloading Practice

[Ol' Red]

Ammonia damaging brass is not a myth, it's chemistry. I don't know if the amount of ammonia in Flitz is enough to cause problems or not, but why not just use the one that has no ammonia?

 

[MagnumManiac]

I amazed that someone would even want to tumble loaded ammo. I remember someone when I was younger telling me they had problems with ammo they had in their truck for years that had changed the pressure from being rattled around dirt roads.

I can tell you it doesn't take years of rattling around a truck to change a load's characteristic. I loaded 100 rounds of 300WM competition ammo, it was using RE25 dumped from the powder scale and loaded long, seated just prior to the competition starting.
I had travelled 9 hours to that shoot, my ammo is always in MTM 100 CaseGuard boxes.
The very first shot, my sighter, sounded very loud, recoil was significantly more and the bolt was locked up solid…
I had to remove the barrel at home, it's a switch barrel anyway, but my Davidson vice kept slipping.
The case head was swelled and was in the plunger ejector hole, I don't run them, the action had no damage.
That powder had settled enough that it changed how it burnt, when I pulled one, held it next to a freshly charged case, the powder height was almost a centimetre different, one was compressed, one had air space, bad juju!

Cheers.

 

[Rotten]

I'd just let people do what they want. If people don't want to listen to common sense then well the school of hard knocks is a bitch. Not saying that tumbling reloaded cartridges will have ill affect. I reload rifle on a single stage and wash the sizing wax off before the powder goes in.
So I can't say one way or the other but it's the first I heard of it.

 

[Victor3Ranger1]

I'm wondering if it's possible that thr tumbling removes the graphite that is used to regulate the burn rate,turning it into flash powder.

So that's how you make flash powder??

 

[QuietTexan]

What about wet tumbling loaded ammo and then drying it in your BBQ?

If you did this with RL26 and Hammer bullets in a 6.5 Creedmoor you might tear the space-time continuum

 

[1mechanic]

What about wet tumbling loaded ammo and then drying it in your BBQ?
Asking for a friend, of course…

Just remember when you're doing this method always tumble in 90 percent alcohol.

 

[Willys]

I can tell you it doesn't take years of rattling around a truck to change a load's characteristic. I loaded 100 rounds of 300WM competition ammo, it was using RE25 dumped from the powder scale and loaded long, seated just prior to the competition starting.
I had travelled 9 hours to that shoot, my ammo is always in MTM 100 CaseGuard boxes.
The very first shot, my sighter, sounded very loud, recoil was significantly more and the bolt was locked up solid…
I had to remove the barrel at home, it's a switch barrel anyway, but my Davidson vice kept slipping.
The case head was swelled and was in the plunger ejector hole, I don't run them, the action had no damage.
That powder had settled enough that it changed how it burnt, when I pulled one, held it next to a freshly charged case, the powder height was almost a centimetre different, one was compressed, one had air space, bad juju!

Cheers.

Mind boggling, I would think more space in case would lower pressure. I guess the more dense powder ignited faster to offset the extra space.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

Randy, when you say tumbled ammo are you including ammo put in a vibrator?

I don't believe a vibrator would have as much effect, but I believe it will still have an effect. JMHO

 

[Randy Tidwell]

@Randy Tidwell - So, we meet again. You left out the part where on those 24hr tumbled rounds, I pulled the bullets, inspected the powder, and then fired the rounds and discovered there was neither a physical change in the powder composition, nor a change in MV, ES, & SD. This was AA2520 spherical ball powder. So, I disagree with your label of "Careless reloader" as I applied due regard to my safety through inspection before firing the rounds. What you call bragging about the shiny condition of the brass was only an intro into the experiment of testing 24hr "tumbled" rounds.

I've been vibratory "tumbling" in Lyman "tumblers" loaded rounds for over 25yrs. Typically 45min-1hr to remove the case lube with Flitz charged walnut media. The 24hr thing was a fluke, but I never want to miss a good opportunity to experiment. I'll guestimate 70K rounds tumbled to date and never a problem. I really do like my stuff consistent and track that through MV, ES/SD. My criteria for maximum allowable pressure in hand loading is measuring primer pocket growth, and stop when I see more than .0005 growth of the primer pocket. This is wildly conservative to flattened primers, sticky bolt, or ejector smear. I consider that brass overworked if those conditions are present.

So, back to the review of the content of your post. I remember the post responses which you call "grief" about your warning in my post. It was actually confirmed ammo manufacturers will tumble loaded rounds for 30-45 min before packaging the rounds for sale. Then there was the distinction between tumbled and vibratory tumbled and cases, and then about military ammo that must be subjected to quite a lot of vibrations before fired. Lets not call facts and evidence "grief" because it ran contrary to your unsupported claim of dangerous conditions which was really off the cuff, chicken little style statement.

With all that said, I do find your observations of the extruded powder results intriguing, but lacking in hard quantifiable data and scientific method application. I never got around to testing the extruded powders because I haven't made the blunder of tumbling them for 24hrs! LOL! I should think a better way about testing the extruded powders is to start with the 1hr tumbled rounds, if the chronograph reads good, then onto the 12hr tumbled and so on. Of course stopping the tests at the first sign of wonky results. Then we shall have some results & conclusions of merit, and backed by hard data.

Oh, and any loaded rounds, regardless of powder, if subjected to direct sunlight will result in increased pressures to include dangerous over pressure. Ball powders have been used in military ammo forever and used in freezing and 140F. climates. The base powder for the majority of military ammo is what we know as TAC, and then tweaked per cartridge performance.

Brathany, first I think you have taken offense to my post, it was not meant to be offensive to anyone including you. My only intention is to share my beliefs. Regarding the careless part, leaving loaded ammo in a tumbler for any extended length of time is careless, don't think you can deny that? So take it as constructive criticism.

Back to my point, anything you do to a loaded round to change the propellant will affect the way it performs. JMHO

I personally spend a lot of time making sure my powder charges are consistent, using long drop tubes, making sure bullets are seated straight and to the same depth. I can only imagine the inconsistency in bullet alignment and setting dept that would be the result from tumbled loaded rounds banging against each other.

Regarding me test fired loaded ammo that has been tumbled, NO THANK YOU! Not this guy.

Regarding powders being affected by temperature, you are correct. However ball powders are more sensitive to temperature changes, so I don't use them.

I'm going to take this experiment further by tumbling just the powder for extended times and look at the kernels with a microscope. I am also going to repeat tumbling loaded rounds to compare run out and seating dept. This will be after hunting season, as that is my priory right now. I'm actually leaving in about two hours for a deer hunt in southern OK, will be back Monday.

Again, please don't take offense, this is not meant to be an attack to anyone. There are many many things we each do while reloading that others disagree with.

 

[lancetkenyon]

OP, when you say "Tumbling", are you talking just throwing loaded rounds in a rotary tumbler (like a rock tumbler or wet tumbler) with no polishing media? Or into a vibratory tumbler with walnut shell or corn cob media?

I can't see seating depth or run out effected by a vibratory tumbler with tumbling media unless you are running .0005" neck tension or less. Even then, highly unlikely. The rounds don't bang against each other. They slowly, and with a lot of buffer material, roll in the vibratory tumbler in all the media which does the actual cleaning.

I have ran loaded rounds a few times in a vibratory tumbler and walnut media for 15-30 minutes to get the sizing lube off when I forgot to size the body of the case and they needed a hint of sizing to chamber properly (my stupid 6CM dies were sent wrong from Redding as a neck sizer instead of a FL die). I saw no effect to POI from 300 to 1400 yards. Meaning I highly doubt velocities or pressures increased by doing so.

 

[Brathany]

Brathany, first I think you have taken offense to my post, it was not meant to be offensive to anyone including you. My only intention is to share my beliefs. Regarding the careless part, leaving loaded ammo in a tumbler for any extended length of time is careless, don't think you can deny that? So take it as constructive criticism.

Back to my point, anything you do to a loaded round to change the propellant will affect the way it performs. JMHO

I personally spend a lot of time making sure my powder charges are consistent, using long drop tubes, making sure bullets are seated straight and to the same depth. I can only imagine the inconsistency in bullet alignment and setting dept that would be the result from tumbled loaded rounds banging against each other.

Regarding me test fired loaded ammo that has been tumbled, NO THANK YOU! Not this guy.

Regarding powders being affected by temperature, you are correct. However ball powders are more sensitive to temperature changes, so I don't use them.

I'm going to take this experiment further by tumbling just the powder for extended times and look at the kernels with a microscope. I am also going to repeat tumbling loaded rounds to compare run out and seating dept. This will be after hunting season, as that is my priory right now. I'm actually leaving in about two hours for a deer hunt in southern OK, will be back Monday.

Again, please don't take offense, this is not meant to be an attack to anyone. There are many many things we each do while reloading that others disagree with.

Unless I missed where you called me a low down dirty democrat, I am not offended. LOL! Just wanted to set straight the record. You made quite a lot on unsupported statements based upon belief and not hard evidence. I look forward to your microscope tests.

 

[Brathany]

OP, when you say "Tumbling", are you talking just throwing loaded rounds in a rotary tumbler (like a rock tumbler or wet tumbler) with no polishing media? Or into a vibratory tumbler with walnut shell or corn cob media?

I can't see seating depth or run out effected by a vibratory tumbler with tumbling media unless you are running .0005" neck tension or less. Even then, highly unlikely. The rounds don't bang against each other. They slowly, and with a lot of buffer material, roll in the vibratory tumbler in all the media which does the actual cleaning.

I have ran loaded rounds a few times in a vibratory tumbler and walnut media for 15-30 minutes to get the sizing lube off when I forgot to size the body of the case and they needed a hint of sizing to chamber properly (my stupid 6CM dies were sent wrong from Redding as a neck sizer instead of a FL die). I saw no effect to POI from 300 to 1400 yards. Meaning I highly doubt velocities or pressures increased by doing so.

I just stop the tumbler/vibrator with enough media in the bottom that they aren't all clanking together. I've measured CBTO after sessions enough to know none of the bullets are moving with 1 and 2 thou interference fit rounds. 1 thou interference fit takes more than a person can muster to move the bullet. I can't recall the actual ftlbs right now.

 

[big johnson]

Kind of along the same lines as using a electric coffee grinder to make 4831 short cut powder out of standard 4831. Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed!!!!!

 

[Critter Picker]

Kind of along the same lines as using a electric coffee grinder to make 4831 short cut powder out of standard 4831. Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed!!!!!

Why wouldn't that work? So if you run it through the grinder do you get 2400 ? Chop the 4831 in half? Technically I suppose it would be 2415.