Custom rifle cost going to the moon , when does it end ?

[adam32]

This thread went full circle...from a company charging too much to now guys that don't charge enough...

 

[25WSM]

I paid off my equipment piece by piece. And 400 bucks is just an example of a chamber job and bedding. Do you really want me telling everybody how much we pay for barrels and stocks. You know what I mean. And I never claimed to get rich just that I sleep good at night knowing I charged for the work I did. Not some upcharge because it was a custom. If you bought all the parts and told the smith to do a chamber job for me. Then came back and said bed this stock. You would have one total. Go back to the same guy and have an exact duplicate custom made you pay 1000 dollars more. That's the crap I'm talking about. First of all if I buy all the parts I make alot more money already. Why would I then charge even more for the same work. I'll put barrels on all day for 250 bucks. That's about 80 bucks an hour for me. If I sell the barrel that's put on I make over 100 bucks an hour. I don't know too many people that wouldn't work for that kind of money. Same money doing a bedding job. And I never once felt cheated in any way doing work for veterans for half off. I still made money. And I paid my taxes just like everybody else. The reason my shop is in my out building next to my home is because I'm a 100% disabled veteran and part of me using the gi bill I paid for I had to work from home. I went in the military in 1986 and yes you paid for your gi bill for 12 months. You guys can dis me all you want but I'm not sorry for one dang minute of how I ran my business. I never one time ask anybody on this site for business. I've been on this site for 9 yrs and I defy you find me advertising one time. The only time you will see me telling someone to send me something was to fix their gunsmiths mistakes. For free. So yes I sleep just fine and feel good about all the work I did. I do own a retail store that is 25 yrs old. 6500 sq ft brick and mortar with 18 employees. I have empoloyees that have worked for me since the day we opened for 25 yrs and now their kids work for me too. I know how to run a business. I don't lose sleep on that one either.
Shep

 

[Buck Fever]

I was and know a LOT of rural gunsmiths and builders and none charge those prices!!

You've got to be kidding me that you think being rural has ANYTHING to do with quality!!

Rural can impact quality.

If there is only one game in town, that means no competition and no monetary incentive to improve quality.

That doesn't always happen but it can happen.

I look at some machining forums and have a hard time understanding issues some people have.

If I want a lathe or mill, I just look at Craigslist and wait. Something nice or cheap or nice and cheap will come along in a month or two. That's because I'm in an urban area. If I dont want to wait a month or two, I can also go to used machinery dealers and pay more. In rural areas I often hear that used lathes and mills are never available near by.

It's a scary thing to buy a brand new lathe to start a business. You won't really know if you can find enough work to pay for it until you try.

In terms of machine pay-off, I know a lot of shops lease and then they think of it as a cost to bake in to their price for the service instead of paying off a tool so that you're making money on it for decades to come. If their business fails, they just call up the leasing company and tell them to pick up the tool.

I know there are plenty of fantastic machinists in rural areas. Maybe it's because they have nothing to do beside practice and shoot? If you are close to one that charges reasonable rates, that is great. If not, it's time to DIY or ship stuff out to a reputable shop.

I'm urban and there is a reputable shop near me but I still DIY because the shop wants me to sign up for full custom rifles instead of just paying for a barrel job. I can't blame them too much because their shop rent is probably more than $5,000 a month. You have to sell a lot of customers a lot of expensive products to cover that, cover expenses and make some money to live.

 

[bigngreen]

What a load of malarkey, your g

Rural can impact quality.

If there is only one game in town, that means no competition and no monetary incentive to improve quality.

That doesn't always happen but it can happen.

I look at some machining forums and have a hard time understanding issues some people have.

If I want a lathe or mill, I just look at Craigslist and wait. Something nice or cheap or nice and cheap will come along in a month or two. That's because I'm in an urban area. If I dont want to wait a month or two, I can also go to used machinery dealers and pay more. In rural areas I often hear that used lathes and mills are never available near by.

It's a scary thing to buy a brand new lathe to start a business. You won't really know if you can find enough work to pay for it until you try.

In terms of machine pay-off, I know a lot of shops lease and then they think of it as a cost to bake in to their price for the service instead of paying off a tool so that you're making money on it for decades to come. If their business fails, they just call up the leasing company and tell them to pick up the tool.

I know there are plenty of fantastic machinists in rural areas. Maybe it's because they have nothing to do beside practice and shoot? If you are close to one that charges reasonable rates, that is great. If not, it's time to DIY or ship stuff out to a reputable shop.

I'm urban and there is a reputable shop near me but I still DIY because the shop wants me to sign up for full custom rifles instead of just paying for a barrel job. I can't blame them too much because their shop rent is probably more than $5,000 a month. You have to sell a lot of customers a lot of expensive products to cover that, cover expenses and make some money to live.

There are zero machines to buy within 600 miles of me, I spent three years trying to find a used on and when they come up they go for more than new or are boat anchors, I had to buy new, no service available I have to fix everything and getting parts is a pain so most guys I know have two of everything.

NO gunsmith shop is leasing, NO one will finance any business that is gun relate, I tried to get a machine to inlet stocks with, 13,000 dollars, very pro gun business and we were on track till financing came up and they felt bad but they could not work with me because all I do is guns. True gunsmiths buy with cash there is no operating loan, leasing, line of credit, nothing!!

Some of the most skilled machinists are rural, where else on earth will you find guys still willing to work with their hands for little to no money and show pride in their work!! You have the no competition backwards, most of our work is shipped to us, we have to be highly competitive both on price and quality, being rural actually drives higher quality in this industry, your not making a living on local work!!!

 

[Buck Fever]

Around here the machining that makes money is for Aerospace, Semiconductors and Biotech. I know that it is possible to do precision and quality anywhere but here it's not optional.

Most shops lease. I'm sorry to hear you can't do that. Its true what I said about pricing. Some shops quote jobs they dont have machines for and they send them back if they can't keep them running after the job.

Business just operates on different levels and you have to either churn parts constantly or charge a lot to keep your head above water here. I have seen successes and I have seen failures. The successes have a lot in common and the failures have a lot in common too.

 

[bigngreen]

I paid off my equipment piece by piece. And 400 bucks is just an example of a chamber job and bedding. Do you really want me telling everybody how much we pay for barrels and stocks. You know what I mean. And I never claimed to get rich just that I sleep good at night knowing I charged for the work I did. Not some upcharge because it was a custom. If you bought all the parts and told the smith to do a chamber job for me. Then came back and said bed this stock. You would have one total. Go back to the same guy and have an exact duplicate custom made you pay 1000 dollars more. That's the crap I'm talking about. First of all if I buy all the parts I make alot more money already. Why would I then charge even more for the same work. I'll put barrels on all day for 250 bucks. That's about 80 bucks an hour for me. If I sell the barrel that's put on I make over 100 bucks an hour. I don't know too many people that wouldn't work for that kind of money. Same money doing a bedding job. And I never once felt cheated in any way doing work for veterans for half off. I still made money. And I paid my taxes just like everybody else. The reason my shop is in my out building next to my home is because I'm a 100% disabled veteran and part of me using the gi bill I paid for I had to work from home. I went in the military in 1986 and yes you paid for your gi bill for 12 months. You guys can dis me all you want but I'm not sorry for one dang minute of how I ran my business. I never one time ask anybody on this site for business. I've been on this site for 9 yrs and I defy you find me advertising one time. The only time you will see me telling someone to send me something was to fix their gunsmiths mistakes. For free. So yes I sleep just fine and feel good about all the work I did. I do own a retail store that is 25 yrs old. 6500 sq ft brick and mortar with 18 employees. I have empoloyees that have worked for me since the day we opened for 25 yrs and now their kids work for me too. I know how to run a business. I don't lose sleep on that one either.
Shep

I really don't know how to take that, I don't think you know what it really cost to start a business right now.
I MIGHT get a 10-15% discount on an action IF I drop a $15,000+ order, then I pay shipping and have a lot of time wrapped up in that order and checking it over and logging it in. I lost money ordering action for customers so I went to them ordering them all, one action maker I actually get a better discount as a member of a certain range than I would at their top tier gunsmith discount!!

Barrels, are about the same discount so 20-30 dollars but again there is shipping on them all, and I have to hit a 3000 order to really start even seeing that. There is phone time getting the order right, checking the order progress then QC all the barrels and hope and pray I ordered the flavor of the month contour and twist rate. I generally used to sell of any unused barrels and I'd only recover about 75% and I had to pay shipping.

Stocks, these suck, ordering blows then riding some manufactures to get something kicked out to you and again a large order to qualify for at MOST a 15% range and again you pay shipping, then inevitably your tweaking an inlet or paint and your again sitting on inventory. Best discount is on a flat top but for the small shop that brings a whole other level of suck but you may have to run less inventory since you can cover more with fewer stocks.

Those are what people think about when they think gun smiths are killing it but they forget hundreds of dollars of other stuff like bottom metal, screws, mag boxes, mounts, things that most of use can't buy in large enough quantities that many just buy from Brownells or Midway.

So now your sitting on payed for with cash probably about $26,000 worth of inventory and haven't built a gun, I MIGHT clear 10% on those parts so there is the POTENTIAL of $2600 so roughly enough to buy the parts for one more build.

Now lets put this sucker together as a shop build, inspect and measure action, throw a barrel in the lathe fit it up, pull out or $250+ reamer and gauge custom spec'ed cause that how we roll, tunes cranking having a good day we get that knocked out in three hours, flip it and brake it dialing in to the same zeros as the chamber and we knocked of another hour and a half ish.

Now we tear it all down and do a run over with the gauging and inspection tools, clean the cutting fluid out of everything torque it back up and lube it up for bedding, pull out and inspect the stock and make sure it's all good, never is so you spend an hour or better just touching things up, swap chucks on the lathe and custom make some pillars that set you for the perfect bedding thickness all over this takes a half hour ish.

Bedding, spend an hour taping and filling double and triple checking, spend a half hour mixing epoxy and getting it bubble free then an settle it in and spend another half hour cleaning it up. Next day throw your action puller on, I bed them tight enough I have to pull them, clean the lines up on the action and all the goop takes an other half hour at least then throw the stock in the mill and dial it in then spend some time creeping around it and cleaning up the bedding for a perfect look, clean out the pillars and check the fit.

Now we throw our trigger on, set it and safety check it takes a half hour then we have to tune up the fit in our stock so back to the mill. Then we drop in our bottom metal and it's fits like a butt so out comes the epoxy and we bed the bottom metal then paint it so the gaps don't show another half hour.

Fit up some sweet BAT action screws that make a built pop, takes another half hour, if it's slotted screws spend an hour fitting so the screws are straight in line with the rifle when tightened.
Now you drop in the mag box and assemble the follower takes a few minutes, make sure its free may have to grind a little on the belt sander. Then you make some dummy rounds and cram them in, first round goes half way up and the bottom one drops and jambs, or you get the first one feed and the second one pops out on the floor. Now you embark on a festival of hatred and self loathing while tuning the feed cycle, may be a few minute may be a couple hours and a few followers and spring later but you finally have it feeding like butter.

Bed the rail takes a half hour ish. Fit and clean everything back up and load up some ammo and hit the range, I like to throw the shop scope on so this turns into a half day adventure usually, take cleaning rods so I can say I broke it in properly, bring it back and clean it spotless and pull my optic and now tear it all apart and prep for Cerakote, this is a couple hour job min if everything stays oil free but it's not hard to have it turn into a half day job but it's worth it because it really make a built just come together. Mark the barrel take a half hour. Final fit takes a good hour, cleaning, getting screws right, feeding and lubing.

Now we gotta sell this thing, we are buried in costs and now were in it probably a little over 20 hours, so now your taking pictures getting it up on line for another couple hours. By the time you sell it you've spent a couple hours on the phone, got told how much prefits are and how cheap barrel made with Chinese steel are just as good as quality stress relieved domestic steel and that you should feel guilty making all that money on parts BUT you make the sale and only drop it 10%. Now you tuck it in a $200 dollar case that you sell at cost but don't recover your shipping on them. Head down to UPS and drop $60+ bones that you charged the customer at your cost, and you wait for the phone calls about it not shooting bullets it was not designed for, the chamber is to tight for my once fired Hornady brass, using a load that is no where near where it was spec'ed to run.

It's late so rough numbers most builds are rough 2300 in parts, we make maybe 10%. Labor 20+ hours easy in one gun, take 80 dollar an hour job shop rate and we see $1600 labor, so were just under $4000 into this thing, we tried to get the average $4600 dollars but knocked of 10% trying to get some cash flow so we gross rough numbers at 4100 ish dollars. So our big pot of Gold amounts to $300 ish on parts and the labor extra in our pocket, but we still are sitting on the parts for 9 more builds, paid the power, taxes, insurance, DOD, labor, building costs, machines and maintenance and the list keeps going. You can not build a business like this unless you can make it to either a volume builder OR your work demands a premium!!

 

[Bravo 4]

This thread went full circle...from a company charging too much to now guys that don't charge enough...

Just goes to show that folks can gripe about anything, and do. As an example, and this is to the one that started this thread (Almondgrower): last time I bought almonds I griped...$9 for a little bag is ridiculous!

 

[shortgrass]

I really don't know how to take that, I don't think you know what it really cost to start a business right now.
I MIGHT get a 10-15% discount on an action IF I drop a $15,000+ order, then I pay shipping and have a lot of time wrapped up in that order and checking it over and logging it in. I lost money ordering action for customers so I went to them ordering them all, one action maker I actually get a better discount as a member of a certain range than I would at their top tier gunsmith discount!!

Barrels, are about the same discount so 20-30 dollars but again there is shipping on them all, and I have to hit a 3000 order to really start even seeing that. There is phone time getting the order right, checking the order progress then QC all the barrels and hope and pray I ordered the flavor of the month contour and twist rate. I generally used to sell of any unused barrels and I'd only recover about 75% and I had to pay shipping.

Stocks, these suck, ordering blows then riding some manufactures to get something kicked out to you and again a large order to qualify for at MOST a 15% range and again you pay shipping, then inevitably your tweaking an inlet or paint and your again sitting on inventory. Best discount is on a flat top but for the small shop that brings a whole other level of suck but you may have to run less inventory since you can cover more with fewer stocks.

Those are what people think about when they think gun smiths are killing it but they forget hundreds of dollars of other stuff like bottom metal, screws, mag boxes, mounts, things that most of use can't buy in large enough quantities that many just buy from Brownells or Midway.

So now your sitting on payed for with cash probably about $26,000 worth of inventory and haven't built a gun, I MIGHT clear 10% on those parts so there is the POTENTIAL of $2600 so roughly enough to buy the parts for one more build.

Now lets put this sucker together as a shop build, inspect and measure action, throw a barrel in the lathe fit it up, pull out or $250+ reamer and gauge custom spec'ed cause that how we roll, tunes cranking having a good day we get that knocked out in three hours, flip it and brake it dialing in to the same zeros as the chamber and we knocked of another hour and a half ish.

Now we tear it all down and do a run over with the gauging and inspection tools, clean the cutting fluid out of everything torque it back up and lube it up for bedding, pull out and inspect the stock and make sure it's all good, never is so you spend an hour or better just touching things up, swap chucks on the lathe and custom make some pillars that set you for the perfect bedding thickness all over this takes a half hour ish.

Bedding, spend an hour taping and filling double and triple checking, spend a half hour mixing epoxy and getting it bubble free then an settle it in and spend another half hour cleaning it up. Next day throw your action puller on, I bed them tight enough I have to pull them, clean the lines up on the action and all the goop takes an other half hour at least then throw the stock in the mill and dial it in then spend some time creeping around it and cleaning up the bedding for a perfect look, clean out the pillars and check the fit.

Now we throw our trigger on, set it and safety check it takes a half hour then we have to tune up the fit in our stock so back to the mill. Then we drop in our bottom metal and it's fits like a butt so out comes the epoxy and we bed the bottom metal then paint it so the gaps don't show another half hour.

Fit up some sweet BAT action screws that make a built pop, takes another half hour, if it's slotted screws spend an hour fitting so the screws are straight in line with the rifle when tightened.
Now you drop in the mag box and assemble the follower takes a few minutes, make sure its free may have to grind a little on the belt sander. Then you make some dummy rounds and cram them in, first round goes half way up and the bottom one drops and jambs, or you get the first one feed and the second one pops out on the floor. Now you embark on a festival of hatred and self loathing while tuning the feed cycle, may be a few minute may be a couple hours and a few followers and spring later but you finally have it feeding like butter.

Bed the rail takes a half hour ish. Fit and clean everything back up and load up some ammo and hit the range, I like to throw the shop scope on so this turns into a half day adventure usually, take cleaning rods so I can say I broke it in properly, bring it back and clean it spotless and pull my optic and now tear it all apart and prep for Cerakote, this is a couple hour job min if everything stays oil free but it's not hard to have it turn into a half day job but it's worth it because it really make a built just come together. Mark the barrel take a half hour. Final fit takes a good hour, cleaning, getting screws right, feeding and lubing.

Now we gotta sell this thing, we are buried in costs and now were in it probably a little over 20 hours, so now your taking pictures getting it up on line for another couple hours. By the time you sell it you've spent a couple hours on the phone, got told how much prefits are and how cheap barrel made with Chinese steel are just as good as quality stress relieved domestic steel and that you should feel guilty making all that money on parts BUT you make the sale and only drop it 10%. Now you tuck it in a $200 dollar case that you sell at cost but don't recover your shipping on them. Head down to UPS and drop $60+ bones that you charged the customer at your cost, and you wait for the phone calls about it not shooting bullets it was not designed for, the chamber is to tight for my once fired Hornady brass, using a load that is no where near where it was spec'ed to run.

It's late so rough numbers most builds are rough 2300 in parts, we make maybe 10%. Labor 20+ hours easy in one gun, take 80 dollar an hour job shop rate and we see $1600 labor, so were just under $4000 into this thing, we tried to get the average $4600 dollars but knocked of 10% trying to get some cash flow so we gross rough numbers at 4100 ish dollars. So our big pot of Gold amounts to $300 ish on parts and the labor extra in our pocket, but we still are sitting on the parts for 9 more builds, paid the power, taxes, insurance, DOD, labor, building costs, machines and maintenance and the list keeps going. You can not build a business like this unless you can make it to either a volume builder OR your work demands a premium!!

Bigngreen is absolutely correct, there is little to no profit in parts for the average gunsmith. No one has bothered to mention the 11% federal excise tax that companies like Gunwerks and others get to pay if they build over 50 firearms. And, 25WSM doesn't have a clue!!

 

[C.O. Shooter]

Listen man, blame it on the Covid! LOL

Just goes to show that folks can gripe about anything, and do. As an example, and this is to the one that started this thread (Almondgrower): last time I bought almonds I griped...$9 for a little bag is ridiculous!

 

[adam32]

Listen man, blame it on the Covid! LOL

I blame Carol F'n Baskin!!!

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

I agree with the post above, it's a hard business to start. I've actually made a goal to sell components to small builders in a way to help them be successful. Our GRB action is a good example and first product.

Despite the challenges, after 15 years, we are still in business serving thousands of customers a year. We've done the math a dozen times on this forum. I don't oppose which ever way you choose to build a custom. I think the budget math to just barely assemble a rifle doesn't do justice to the value Gunwerks (or other similar companies) provides for their customers.

Bottom line is I would be making more if I took a 9 to 5 a an engineer! But I get the privilege to work twice as much, and will probably die of a heart attack before 50!

I do provide for over 60 families, and we have tens of thousands of awesome customers! I love this business, I love guns, and I love long range shooting!

 

[Muledeerhuntingfreak]

I paid off my equipment piece by piece. And 400 bucks is just an example of a chamber job and bedding. Do you really want me telling everybody how much we pay for barrels and stocks. You know what I mean. And I never claimed to get rich just that I sleep good at night knowing I charged for the work I did. Not some upcharge because it was a custom. If you bought all the parts and told the smith to do a chamber job for me. Then came back and said bed this stock. You would have one total. Go back to the same guy and have an exact duplicate custom made you pay 1000 dollars more. That's the crap I'm talking about. First of all if I buy all the parts I make alot more money already. Why would I then charge even more for the same work. I'll put barrels on all day for 250 bucks. That's about 80 bucks an hour for me. If I sell the barrel that's put on I make over 100 bucks an hour. I don't know too many people that wouldn't work for that kind of money. Same money doing a bedding job. And I never once felt cheated in any way doing work for veterans for half off. I still made money. And I paid my taxes just like everybody else. The reason my shop is in my out building next to my home is because I'm a 100% disabled veteran and part of me using the gi bill I paid for I had to work from home. I went in the military in 1986 and yes you paid for your gi bill for 12 months. You guys can dis me all you want but I'm not sorry for one dang minute of how I ran my business. I never one time ask anybody on this site for business. I've been on this site for 9 yrs and I defy you find me advertising one time. The only time you will see me telling someone to send me something was to fix their gunsmiths mistakes. For free. So yes I sleep just fine and feel good about all the work I did. I do own a retail store that is 25 yrs old. 6500 sq ft brick and mortar with 18 employees. I have empoloyees that have worked for me since the day we opened for 25 yrs and now their kids work for me too. I know how to run a business. I don't lose sleep on that one either.
Shep

You are an inspiration don't let anybody ever tell you anything other than that

 

[25WSM]

Well it seems as if you guys don't have a clue. I see way better profits on parts than that. I work more efficiently. And since you guys have taken the fact that I'm clueless I will fill you in. I already told you I own another business that I've had for 25 yrs. A very big retail store in a plaza. But I don't know business. 30yrs ago I drove pizza and rented an apartment while I went to gunsmith school. Now at 53 I'm retired 100%. My wife is going to retire at 50. I own 3 houses worth a total of 800000 dollars. Paid for. 60 acres of land. Paid for. 750hp 2011 Camaro. Paid for. 30000 dollar 2018 Sea Ark jet boat. Paid for. Sold my 21ft Ranger Z21 BassBoat. So that was a wash because it was paid for. Kubota backhoe. Paid for. 5 kayaks on trailer and camper trailer. Paid for. At least 50 rifles and 6 bows. Paid for. And the stupid list goes on. Raised 3 kids and put them through college. Our retail store has been closed for 7 weeks due to our state closing all non essential businesses. We have paid every bill to date. Because we know how to run a business we had emergency money set aside. I think you get the point that I have been very successful in my businesses. Oh I forgot my 5 motorcycles and 73 jeep with 9000 miles on it. No I don't have a freaking clue. Don't believe any of what I say come visit. I'm not hard to find. So for you guys that don't know anything about me at all talking about me not having a clue your just plain dumb. It's just plain dumb to talk about someone you don't know and claim they don't know how things work. You don't know anything about me yet you try to put me down. Go frack yourself. Look back through my 9 yrs on this site And you won't find one time I bad-mouthed anyone's business. Go ponder why you don't make money. Not on how I can't.
I'm gonna go cut grass now on my 12000 mower. Not paid for. Yet.
Shep

 

[25WSM]

I love my GRB action. But who designed that bolt knob. Mine had a little trip in the lathe.
Shep