Copper Monos - How to choose the right weight(and maybe caliber)?

[fordy]

Gday hard rock

That Hammer supporter was spell checks wording , It should have said . I'm strictly a Hammer fan boy.

Now now be careful assumptions may be made
Nothing to do with preformance that's repeatable
Cheers

 

[Franko21]

Gday franko21
No worries on spending time . also I love animals so much that they deserve the best & if you only get one thing out of the following im so happy as your impact to tipping will improve & im trying not to sound cocky so please don't take it that way I'm no guru & fairly dumb just observant & of course Jm2cw

Couple great questions in here & im probably going to go all over the place as coming to the end of calving season & my sleep pattern has messed my body up ( my mind is buggered already lol ) so just pull me up where clarifications are needed or correct me if I'm wrong or put a different proposition up as I'm always open to learning

this process is not as simple as just a few lines I believe , well my world as I've spent the best part of my hunting life trying to work things out for the most consistent outcome & just lucky culling was a means to see patterns so easily


First on caliber if you can run a bigger caliber @ the same velocity as accurate I'll go bigger every time now there is also the part you can drop velocity on the bigger caliber & results are roughly equal ( there is a line cross moment & I haven't been able to work that out with certainty but trying )
& how monos have changed my old process of what I did to get great preformance out of cup& core ( still some similarities but we need to clear our head especially with hammers )
It's all in the bubble
Penertration is my number 1 priority
( assuming pill is accurate ) as shallow penertration is worse than over ( broadly speaking ) so I want ample penertration & really I can drop around 25% ( hammers ) from my old thoughts / uses with ease on the majority of weights example
375 300gr now 250
30 cal 200gr now 150
Now depending on critter I'll go up or down off terminal results but my base is set on 25% & hammers cover this with ease other brands a little different & the 15% less is a good baseline if you are a longrange only guy I'd look @ a different process
The rest I just do up drop charts of a comparison between the 2 & velocity impact is key here & leads us into the more crucial part & that's the velocity impact & creating the correct bubble part of this is a big enough wound channel & more importantly straight line penertration & this is where we have to be extremely careful!!! I can't emphasise this enough with monos ( leaving hammers out )
The vast majority of companies give a low end working velocity well let's define working & is it a pill that just starts to deform or takes on a different shape than their normal most effective / efficient terminal shape hmmm I've got to get pictures to show what I mean but time limited so I'll come back asap with those or a few other forms of the deformed pill @ low velocities I just don't like as the fur calculator has shown preformance drops off considerably

so let's put the cat among the pigeons
Most mono companies low end working velocities are crap yes they will kill but the results are less than impressive & I would take certain frangibles anyday / everyday over the vast majority of them
I am one for the best terminal results over our hunting ranges we can get not that just killed pill ( I'm also realist as a 3000 impact kills better than a 2000 broadly speaking & don't expect the 2 different impacts to kill identical as they don't some frangible are actually better killers @ lower velocity than high along with some monos it's simple really = velocity windows )

The one where this low end velocity shows up is extended runs on the fur calculator or worse a lost animal & just by looking @ a pill in its terminal form ( across velocities) I have a fair certainty of where it will potentially fail then it's confirmed either way once critters are taken this also includes high velocity impact

I think the biggest thing people get confused is when we see that great preformance on the good shot placement ( myself included until I step back & clear my head ) when really it doesn't matter on that as most pills kill if in the right spot it's that less than ideal shot that tells us more & look how many comment great preformance on a cns shot myself included . you can get data from it but I dismiss it ( with respect once again I'm talking terminally & love the outcome for hunter & animal ) as a reliable indicator as a true solid will do the same basically & on my sheets I have a spot for cns then bangflop ( plus other columns) as 2 different things in my world

Hope that explains a little more but the biggest thing is look @ a company that it's terminal pill design mushroom or shed dosent matter when that changes you have a idea preformance will be compromised eventually eg
Barnes 30 cal 125 gr pill works very well @ most ranges drop the velocity impacts either side of 2200 & 3300 & the form has changed enough that longer runs occur on average especially the lower velocity
The higher velocity impact kills better than the low but the 33003400 once it starts ripping petals off becomes basically a round nose & while it is straight for a bit it dosent stay that way & on occasions it will miss the vitals completely on quarter away or even deflect off bone more often than it's true form
This is not to say it happens ever shot but I'll guarantee it will eventually as I've seen way to many times , a low % yes but I don't like a bingo raffle

This is replicated so many times with so many pills it becomes so repetitive once you see what's going on
Yes hammers are different & I haven't worked out the full velocity window of these yet but it's big & the top end



Gotta go back asap
Cheers

Thank you again for taking the time to type that all out. It was certainly worth reading.

 

[yorke-1]

I have been doing a lot of reading and have a couple of questions I am hopoing that people can chime in on:

Question 1 - How do you choose the right projectile weight? Is a 7mm RM shooting a 100 gr monolithic at 3500fps good for everything (deer, hogs, elk, etc.) or at some point do you need to step up to a heaver projectile?

Question 2 - If you do have to go to a heavier projectile what factors do you use to decide the right weight?

Question 3 - Does caliber matter? Is there going to be an appreciable difference in terminal performance between a 130 gr 6.5mm projectile going 3100 fps vs a .308 caliber 135gr projectile going 3100fps?

Thanks for reading this.

Pretty much all of those questions come down to personal preference.

I prefer to use bullet weights on the heavier end of what will stabilize in my barrel. I don't necessarily believe they're better, it's just a matter of preference. I've also had better luck finding accurate and consistent loads when using heavier bullets in large cases like the RUM.

For caliber, I'll always pick the larger bore diameter. That's just a preference though, not because I believe they're more effective. I only shoot the smaller calibers when I have a specific project gun that I'm working with. If I'm just grabbing the rifle that I want to use, it's a 375 of some sort.

I've tested a bunch of different bullets under the same conditions, and I've consistently seen monos perform better when driven at high velocity with above-average (1.5+ SG) stability. Your options to get there are to either use a faster rifling twist, larger capacity cartridge, or a lighter (shorter) bullet. Bullet length has a much more dramatic influence on stability than velocity does, so going with a lighter (shorter) bullet is the easiest way to improve stability without a new barrel. I've seen a lot of bullets do weird stuff when they're shot out of the absolute minimum twist rate. I've seen more consistent bullet performance when the bullets impact at higher RPMs. I've also seen better performance when the bullets shed their petals quickly. Weird stuff happens though if the petals don't break off rapidly or symetrically. If you combine minimum stability with an unbalanced bullet, you can almost guarantee an unpredictable penetration path. I don't have any proof, but I'm pretty confident that the JFK "Magic Bullet" was actually the result of an under-stabilized projectile........

 

[Hard rock]

Pretty much all of those questions come down to personal preference.

I prefer to use bullet weights on the heavier end of what will stabilize in my barrel. I don't necessarily believe they're better, it's just a matter of preference. I've also had better luck finding accurate and consistent loads when using heavier bullets in large cases like the RUM.

For caliber, I'll always pick the larger bore diameter. That's just a preference though, not because I believe they're more effective. I only shoot the smaller calibers when I have a specific project gun that I'm working with. If I'm just grabbing the rifle that I want to use, it's a 375 of some sort.

I've tested a bunch of different bullets under the same conditions, and I've consistently seen monos perform better when driven at high velocity with above-average (1.5+ SG) stability. Your options to get there are to either use a faster rifling twist, larger capacity cartridge, or a lighter (shorter) bullet. Bullet length has a much more dramatic influence on stability than velocity does, so going with a lighter (shorter) bullet is the easiest way to improve stability without a new barrel. I've seen a lot of bullets do weird stuff when they're shot out of the absolute minimum twist rate. I've seen more consistent bullet performance when the bullets impact at higher RPMs. I've also seen better performance when the bullets shed their petals quickly. Weird stuff happens though if the petals don't break off rapidly or symetrically. If you combine minimum stability with an unbalanced bullet, you can almost guarantee an unpredictable penetration path. I don't have any proof, but I'm pretty confident that the JFK "Magic Bullet" was actually the result of an under-stabilized projectile........

Your probably right on the magic bullet , it's hard too stabilize a bullet when it's static .

 

[fordy]

Gday franko21
Here is a good example of a pill that won't step on too many toes around here ( well I hope ) but it's no different than so many other pills that use the same process they all have velocity windows ( every pill does regardless of type ) that are no where near what the company puts out

It's a gpa pill
Sorry for the state of them but it's a great example of a velocity window
The flat meplat one was boring on recovery as this pill @ these impact velocities 2900 approx was incredibly consistent as a lot of the pills do today
Now I could only get these pills to impact @ slightly above 3200 but preformance was very good there also & I suspect it would do well to 3500 maybe 3600 but it will more than likely start to fail above this mark due to the type of copper used so let's use 3600 as a potential ball park figure but I also accept I may be wrong as only theory & I don't like theories
Now the other end of this window
The bad one this was taken out of a red deer on fairly hard quarter away
This particular pill ( 2320 impact approx ) impacted ( aiming far leg to get to vitals ) then the pill never made it to them as done a U turn & ended in the opposite side back leg
Now this is one of the worst I've seen in a shedding type pill but definitely not the only one ( or type that does this ) as once that flat meplat is altered ( not a angled meplat from bone impact as that's a different set of outcomes ) you get weird stuff happening that comprises the results we expect & are better off steering clear imo I'm not saying they won't kill I'm trying to stop the 1% from rearing it's ugly head & this one unless a follow up shot was taken that animal was gone to suffer a slow death

I've replicated this on so many brands it's stupid but a very low % of the total shots taken but it happens & a few resistances it happens with way more consistency & one of the things I pay the utmost attention to

This gpa pill showed the altered meplat form from the flat one around 2400

So this pill has a velocity window of around 1200 imo yes it will kill outside of these but I don't like bingo raffles like stated previously but in reality I only had a 800 fps impact window & that basically made this pill useless to my hunting ranges after many many thousands the penny finally dropped & I moved on

I've used a huge variety of brands & the one trait so consistent in terminal performance dropping off is when that pill goes from it's good form to a secondary you may want to search for another pill if it steps outside of the velocity window that you'll take game @ or wait to see if your number Is called out , that's solely upto the individual

I'll leave you with this
Once you get that part worked out start looking @ your actual velocity impacts & break those down into sub categories & now your getting into the depths of some serious terminal results

Thanks for taking the time to read & ask stay safe & shoot straight
Hope it helps
Cheers

 

[fordy]

Gday
Sorry don't know why only 2 pics showed up here's the other couple
Cheers

 

[Franko21]

Gday
Sorry don't know why only 2 pics showed up here's the other couple
Cheers

These two clearly show why caliber matters and why I'm probably going to be living with lots of practice on how to deal with recoil...

 

[fordy]

Gday franko21

Here's a spammer for your works

What animals , caliber are you thinking & ranges you shoot to & most likely impact range will hold you in good stead to work out what the choices may be
Cheers

 

[Franko21]

Gday franko21

Here's a spammer for your works

What animals , caliber are you thinking & ranges you shoot to & most likely impact range will hold you in good stead to work out what the choices may be
Cheers

I'm looking at hunting Mule Deer and maybe Elk in the Western United States; California or perhaps Montana. Gun will be a 7mm RM (with a 26 inch 1 in 8 twist barrel) and max distance will be 400 yards (I'm not comfortable shooting any further yet). Top considerations at the moment are Hammer Hunter 143, Cutting Edge Lazer 145, or Apex 117 (the 117 strikes me as being a little light).

 

[Bob Wright]

With the Hammer site the minimum velocity is 1800 on the Hunter.
I just started two rifles for my Kaibab hunt for muley.
The 280AI, 8.4 twist, at ~3120 fps, 143HH will reach that low minimum at 800 yards, Strelok says.
The 7RM, travels at 3320, 8.5 twist, it will hit the lower threshold at 900 yards.
All the above will be re-shot at 7000 ft altitude over Labradar so I can upload proven numbers, make adjustments to Strelok vs actual velocities and drops out to 600.
Hope this gives you some idea.
None are these are at max speed, as I never found a pressure red-line. I just found a good node.

 

[mcdil]

I'm looking at hunting Mule Deer and maybe Elk in the Western United States; California or perhaps Montana. Gun will be a 7mm RM (with a 26 inch 1 in 8 twist barrel) and max distance will be 400 yards (I'm not comfortable shooting any further yet). Top considerations at the moment are Hammer Hunter 143, Cutting Edge Lazer 145, or Apex 117 (the 117 strikes me as being a little light).

Franko21,
With a self-imposed 400 yard max, the 117gr Afterburner will have no weaknesses. In fact, hypothetically, if Apex Outdoors had a heavier offering for a faster twist to match your 1:8", I would still suggest the 117gr (designed for 1:9.5" or faster) for your application and personal limits as I think overall performance will be maximized. The 117gr has a respectable BC, in line with or better than many streamlined 140-class bullets, and the muzzle velocity will be very high reducing overall time of flight and associated wind drift for the canyon shots out to 400 yards. It's only when you start really reaching out there (700+ yards) does the estimated G7 of .230 start to lack when compared to longer, higher BC bullets designed for faster twists.

Of utmost importance in your application, the 117gr will hit very hard, provide massive shock, especially at 7mm RM velocities, and provide deep penetration, plenty for the game you're after.

 

[ButterBean]

Some wrong info here. Shoulder stabilization is what keeps bullets traveling "point first" in flesh. Twist has very little to do with it since flesh is 1000 times more dense than air. A pointed bullet that is "more stable" will travel point first a little further in flesh than a "less stable" bullet but it will still tumble. This is for ex why you may see something like a berger travel couple more inches before coming apart at long range.

The change of terminal shape of a hunting bullet is why it travels head on or why a blunt solid travels head on. Shoulder stabilization keeps them from flipping in general. Flat wrong to suggest an expanded front is more likely to tumble.

Here is video of shoulder stabilization. This is not controversial and been understood for a long time



Terminal sectional density is what drives penetration. The reason monos penetrate so deep is either they retain weight and have smaller frontal area (in case of barnes type) or blow off their petals and have a very small front and decent weight like a hammer. Both cases are likely to have a higher terminal SD than a lead/copper bullet that sheds weight and expands to wider frontal area even if
started with higher SD.

Lou

Gonna need to clear you head of the way we have been engrained to think all of these years

 

[ButterBean]

We have proven this with deforming bullets that shed the nose. Rotational velocity is a significant contributor to length of penetration and straightness of penetration. Take it a step further to a bullet that is marginally stable for ballistic flight. A marginally stable bullet will fly very accurately consistently enough to compete in bench rest. This marginally stable bullet will likely have issues when impacting an animal. This where we see bullets do not expand at all. Plenty of impact vel for full expansion, so to say that stability plays no role in terminal performance is simply wrong. Or to say that it only matters for a non expanding spitzer is also wrong. No offence intended.

Another scenario that proves this it testing dangerous game solids. A shorter lighter solid that is designed not to lose any weight or expand will out penetrate a longer heavier one impacted at the same vel. Reason is that the longer shank will upset sooner and begin to tumble causing it to lose velocity sooner and penetrate less as well as going off track and changing direction. Give the longer heavier solid a higher rate of twist and it will improve the depth of penetration. The only time I would say that higher stability does not aid in straight line penetration is with a bullet has poor integrity and comes apart on impact. This really doesn't count, because bullets like this are bound for failure on tough animals or large animals requiring deep penetration. They are simply unpredictable.

While we are at it, let's blow up the theory that higher sectional density bullets will always have better penetration. I mentioned earlier that the amount of time that a bullet spends deforming and shedding weight will directly effect it's ability to penetrate. The longer this takes the more of the rotational vel and forward momentum is robbed. Let's take our 30 cal 124g Hammer Hunter with a sectional density of .187 will out penetrate other bullets of ours with much higher sectional density. Proven in media and lots of animals, big animals like water buffalo. @fordy was the first guy to take this little pill out and shoot animals way too big for it's weight. It outperforms .375 caliber bullets in it's penetration and stopping power. At this point I only have theories on how this can happen. According to conventional wisdom it can't, but it does. Not just once, but hundreds of times. I believe it comes down to a perfect balance of shed weight, length of retained shank, and form of retained shank that creates a pressure wave in front of the bullet as it passes through the soft tissue creating a scenario where very little material is actually touching the bullet. Along with that an incredibly high stability factor. Along the same lines, we have our 137g 30 cal Hammer Hunter. Designed proportionally the same as the 124g Hammer Hunter 30 cal. It was under performing to what we anticipated. Still outperforming conventional bullet, but not what we expected. We changed the hollow point depth by 2mm and gained 18" of penetration. Now it is running with the 124g Hammer Hunter, maybe slightly better. It has not had the chance yet to test on very many bovines and such. We will see after a proper number of animals are taken with it. One more. I am pretty sure that no one here would bet that a 248g .375 cal Hammer Hunter fired from a 10" twist rum would out penetrate a 281g Hammer Hunter fired from the same rifle. I lost that bet. Both bullets loose proportionally the same amount of weight on impact. As of right now the heavier higher sectional density bullet is overlooked by the Ausies when headed out to cull water buffalo. Sectional density of the two bullets is .252 and .285. Now, that same 375 rum has a new barrel with a 7" twist. I think this will make the 281g outperform the 248g. I'm not sure though. We will soon see. I used the 281g Hammer Hunter in Africa last April and flat decked everything I shot, including a giraffe. Shoulder shot he only made it 52y. That is like three jumps for a giraffe.

So, much of the information out there about bullet performance based on sectional density and energy was written by magazine writers back in the 50's and 60's and passed on as fact, simply does not stand up to scrutiny. Repeating it and stating it as fact without your own testing to back it up doesn't hold water. I don't claim to be an expert, or the smartest guy in the room, but I have set out to figure it out, in the process of producing the best bullet possible. We assumed a lot of stuff when we started making bullets, and when it didn't work, like we assumed, we set out to figure it out so we could correct it. Terminal performance in a hunting bullet is everything. Everything else is secondary.

You said it a lot better than I was going to

 

[Franko21]

Franko21,
With a self-imposed 400 yard max, the 117gr Afterburner will have no weaknesses. In fact, hypothetically, if Apex Outdoors had a heavier offering for a faster twist to match your 1:8", I would still suggest the 117gr (designed for 1:9.5" or faster) for your application and personal limits as I think overall performance will be maximized. The 117gr has a respectable BC, in line with or better than many streamlined 140-class bullets, and the muzzle velocity will be very high reducing overall time of flight and associated wind drift for the canyon shots out to 400 yards. It's only when you start really reaching out there (700+ yards) does the estimated G7 of .230 start to lack when compared to longer, higher BC bullets designed for faster twists.

Of utmost importance in your application, the 117gr will hit very hard, provide massive shock, especially at 7mm RM velocities, and provide deep penetration, plenty for the game you're after.

I just got on the notification list for when they are back in stock and will buy once they become available. Thanks for the help with this.