Cold bore shot

[texan79]

RDM416,

Those torque numbers seem high to me.

NF calls for 15 in lb. base to action and 15 in lb on the ring screws.
68 on the cross bolts. What hardware and screws are you using, and what type of actions are you using?

 

[RDM416]

Texan79,

You are correct, NF does call for 15 in/lbs. I typically go a little high on most of my scope and base mounting torque numbers and just spouted off the top of my head the values I use. I don't think you are likely to damage most scopes or mounts with the 25 to 30 in/lbs torque, but I should have thought and looked up what some of the various mfs call for.

I have a variety of actions, customs..... Nesika and others, remmy's and Wby's...... Most have Badger rails, one NF and one Ken Farrel. I use Badger, NF or MK4 steel rings. I have several NF scopes along with a couple of Swaro PH's, both have much thicker tubes than the typical scope.

I shoot some intense rounds, 338 Kahn, 338 RUM, 338 Edge, 510 Allen Mag, 416 Wby....... These rifes have brakes, but still have significant recoil, along with the complex forces created by having a brake on such intense loads.

I have always added a little extra torque on my scope mounting screws just to help counter these forces. Others use 4 rings instead of 2. I have been using these torque numbers for many years with no (known) adverse effects. With quality steel rings and thick tube scopes, I don't have any concerns about the higher torque values.

You are right though, for the typical thinner walled scope and certainly if using aluminum rings or bases the mfr torque values should be followed.

 

[LouBoyd]

More & more 'hunters' are focusing on preconditioned muti-shot grouping as a capability measure. Well, this ain't diddly squat in the real world.
For hunting, you need 1st shot cold barrel ACCURACY from your shooting system(including strategy), and so an awareness of your true capabilities here.

Hunting is NOT target shooting -at game.
There are no sighters, foulers, barrel temp stabilizing, benches, rests, stools, set ranges or wind flags
-snip-
BE A HUNTER, WITH YOUR HUNTING GUN

I certainly agree that hunting is not target shooting. The objective is quickly killing and recovering an animal. You can spend a fortune on a top quality rifle, top quality scope, and precision hand loaded ammo but there is still variable wind to deal with. You can't always see downrange mirage or plant movement to estimate crosswinds and unlike target shooting you don't have the luxury of wind flags and sighters. Missing game isn't the problem. Any long range hunter will wound game on occasion. Fast follow up shots are sometimes a necessity to guarantee a quick kill and they may be at a moving target.

With that in mind I've concluded this should be my "hunting gun" for deer at 500 to 1000 yards. Tracers allow easily walking rounds across the target. There is no problem with cold vs warm barrel. Not even a problem with range or wind estimation or if the animal runs while the first shot is in the air. Two or three hits with tracers is as effective as expanding premium hunting ammo and won't tear up as much meat. It might take a dozen or more rounds but the ammo is relatively inexpensive and a quick kill is virtually guaranteed unless the animal can hide.

I hope you guys recognize satire when you see it. I've not used the Browning 1919 for hunting and don't plan to. Would it work? I expect ti would as reliably as other "long range" rifles. Some game wardens might not be amused. The real solution is only to take shots where the probability of anything other than a clean first shot kill is eliminated. But that is not "longrangehunting".

 

[Mikecr]

The real solution is only to take shots where the probability of anything other than a clean first shot kill is eliminated

On this, I totally agree.

But that is not "longrangehunting"

I hope this is more satire..

I say:
Hunting is not only shooting..
And 'long range hunting' does not mean risking with shots beyond known capability..
This is not about luck!

But anyway, w/regard to hunting shots, isn't the objective always a clean first shot kill?
Shouldn't this be the primary capability in shooting, whether using a rifle, shotgun, or bow?
And with this, isn't 'long range' merely a RELATIVE extension of your capabilities?

You begin with what you know, and build up from there. You work hard at it from there..
You do not just step out of the truck and fire away at far off things to accomplish anything in long range 'hunting'.
You do not simply sight in a gun at a fixed distance, group well, and moon-walk around implying competency in hunting to any distance or condition.. Right?
Is there any wonder that these actions would be offensive to those who really have worked hard to extend their capabilities?

An example of my perspectives here:
With months of cold bore load development, and investment and practice with an LRF, Kestrel, and field ballistic solutions, I've determined that my woodchuck killzone capability is 700yrds with a 6br/95vld off a bipod-in the field. I'm a walking varminter.

---------Let's say I spot one ~850yrds out----------

Does it make sense to shoot at it? Is that what long range hunters do?
Afterall, I might not get another shot at it today...
HELL NO,, this is not what competent hunters do.
Hunting is not about -getting a shot at it!

Does it makes sense to consider my capabilities, and conditions, and options?
Maybe risk not getting a shot at it, for intelligent actions with higher probability of success?
HELL YES. Well, it makes perfect sense to me..

So I pick up my gear and hike down a valley, cross a stream, and two fence lines later I setup in a field within 595yds of the chucks previous position. I've measured air density, bearing, slope, watched the winds, and have a ballistic solution dialed in. My gun's on it's bipod, rear monopod, and level. Now I wait for the rat bastard to look around a bit, and if he does, I get a solid focus on him, possibly re-range, and make final adjustments.

Will I get the shot & nail it?
Hope so, of course,, But I've already had more fun than an 850yd prayer would have provided, regardless of possibility.
I feel in control, and at least as smart as this marmot.

- Some would suggest this is not long range. But they are not shooting my gun, in my fields, are they?
- Some would suggest that moving closer reduced the accomplishment. But last I knew, stalking is a smart hunting strategy. I spotted the chuck at 850, and might take it with a single shot before the day's end. I also know this is something most shooters just can't do. Either their shooting systems, or they themselves, are not up to the task.
Maybe they lack resources, or time.. Maybe they are not disciplined hunters.. Maybe they delude themselves with the value of group shooting paper off bench rests..
In contrast, successful long range hunters should feel pretty good about these challenges -having overcome them.

 

[loaders_loft]

geez you guys are really going overboard on this guy's post. Poor guy, he just wants some help with his rifle, not a bnunch of preachy sermons in the ethics, methods and modes of long range. I thought we weren't supposed to have that kind of talk on this site.

All the VLS rifles I have seen shoot quite well.
Sometimes if you get more torque on the rear screw before the front, it will stress the gun and do strange things like that. Back off the screws, then firm up the front, then the rear, then torque the front and finally the rear. Torque in stages, not straight up to 60 at once. That might help, otherwise, bed the rifle.

 

[Freebore]

texan79

I never meet a 243 that didn't put three in **** near the same hole at 100 except for one and they replaced the rifle. As other have stated check everything out, look closely at where you bearing points are on the stock, you may have a few high spots. Knock 'em down with care and reassemble or just rebed and be done with it. That off center thing is an issue. Did you just buy the stock...send it back if you did, or argue like for a replacement.

The other post that said shoot a ladder test, do it if you haven't. I finally started doing this and you know what..they work. I was always one for shooting a particular bullet at a given speed due to my chart info as to what I wanted to achieve. With the ladder test I can/have eliminated alot of powders in a hurry and I can get 'er there and still have enough to load up a few boxes of rounds from the same box of bullets.

85 gr Sierra w/either IMR 4350 or H4350 and a 95gr Nosler Blistering tip w/3100. I shoot an older Sako. My favorite rifle for Texas hunting.

you'll get 'er there just don't get frustrated or you need to walk away, and ask for help as you already done. This is the fun part of rifles..finding the issues and makeing them shoot...now you need another rifle as you took the fun out his one. I been having fun with guns for over 40 years.

LOUBoyd
I'm in Az every April can I come shooting with you and we need to use your guns..what d'ya say?!

 

[tnshooter111]

I got the stock used. It was bedded from the first owner but I took it out before I put my action in. The bedding was very soft plastic that i could move slightly with my finger. I made sure to get all the beddeing out form the areas the lug would contact. This could be the reason it was sold to me lol. I thought I would try the stock before I bedded it, seeing HS precision says not to. When I get some free time I will try and work on it. Thanks for all the help.
I put about 20 pound on my rings and about 35 on the base screws.

I love how people have judge me on my shooting distance when I have not stated how far I would be shooting at game. All I have said is at 300 yards I was seeing a major difference in cold bore shot to my follow up shots. How far and how many times I shoot at a animal is my decision but thanks for yalls concern.

 

[bigngreen]

I got the stock used. It was bedded from the first owner but I took it out before I put my action in. The bedding was very soft plastic that i could move slightly with my finger. I made sure to get all the beddeing out form the areas the lug would contact. This could be the reason it was sold to me lol. I thought I would try the stock before I bedded it, seeing HS precision says not to. When I get some free time I will try and work on it. Thanks for all the help.
I put about 20 pound on my rings and about 35 on the base screws.

I love how people have judge me on my shooting distance when I have not stated how far I would be shooting at game. All I have said is at 300 yards I was seeing a major difference in cold bore shot to my follow up shots. How far and how many times I shoot at a animal is my decision but thanks for yalls concern.

Stress free bed that bad boy with Devcon putty will make a world of difference, any metal surface that mates to another is a point to look at and true up, recoil lug being on the top of the list!

 

[RDM416]

tnshooter,

From your last post I would say we are getting getting down to the issue at hand...... stock bedding and proper action screw torque and procedure. Like the previous post said...... bed that stock with some Devcon and your problem will most likely go away.....

As for the ethics stuff......... Some of the posts were a little tongue in cheek..... others may have been a little presumptuous of your skill/experience level. For my part, I did not mean to offend. Like the "loaders loft" said, you just asked a simple technical question and somehow the thread turned into an ethics session rather than just dealing with the problem you were having.

Hopefully, we have answered your initial question and you will be able to get that rifle performing up to it's potential.

Now, just a little defense of the ethics stuff....... Most (if not all) of us have run into the "long range wannabe's" at hunting camp, the range, etc...... They will tell anyone who will listen that they can "kill a deer" at 500 or 600 yards, but just a little observation shows they have neither the knowledge or equipment to make such a shot. Usually there is some story of how they held "just over that deer's back at 600 yards offhand".........

We have all met these guys and it gives "long range hunting" a bad name. They call themselves long range hunters and will shoot at anything no matter how far, what the conditions, etc, until they either hit it or run out of bullets.

Then when someone shows up at an elk outfitters camp who has the skill and equipment to make a 600 yard shot, the outfitter just rolls his eyes..... and thinks here we go again!

So, sometimes we can get a little wound up about "follow up shot questions" because the true "long range shooter" has the equipment, and skill to make the shot in front of him...... or he don't take it. There are no "poke and hope" shots. If you miss, there is a reason....... did I range it wrong, did I misread the wind, angle, did I screw up my dial in dope, etc. If the shot was a miss, you did something wrong, so the answer is NOT to just crank in another round in and try again. You figure out what went wrong, fix it, or decide the shot is out of range of your skill level and stand down.

Yes, follow up shots at animals with a bad hit may need to be quick with just a guess at the dope, but those should be the exception rather than the rule.

Don't mean to preach Tnshooter, but that is why the topic of "follow up shots" can get a little out of hand sometimes....... Good luck on the rifle and keep up the posts, let us know how she shoots when you get the bedding job done...... I for one will try to not be judgmental the next time!

 

[loaders_loft]

much better

 

[Hired Gun]

I'm thinking that Browning 1919 might not have as big an advantage when configured for hunting with the 5 round capacity limit.

 

[Mikecr]

it ain't worth it

 

[Miller Outdoors]

How far and how many times I shoot at a animal is my decision but thanks for yalls concern.

Very well said and straight to the point. Most folks hunt for their own enjoyment, and nobody else's.

As far as the cold bore anomaly - I've had that happen on one rifle. I concentrated on the torque of the screws and eliminated it by about half. I ended up figuring out that almost all of the rest was due to it being clean. Now I make sure to put a fouling shot through it and check the screw torque - 90% of the issue was solved and I can live with still being off about 3/4" at 200 on the very first shot.