Case annealing

[Old Rooster]

What Mike said.
I dropped the torch method several years ago.Even with Templaq you can easily over heat the brass and ruin it as I did it with high quality brass and I now use salt bath method.Some say it's not as perfect as the induction method but at least I have not ruined brass except when I did it too long in the salt to see what happens.The brass was so soft it crushed the shoulder when trying to load a bullet in the dummy brass so salt bath annealing does work,maybe not perfect as the AMP but well enough for me.

 

[ButterBean]

Well, with a torch you're trying to bring brass thickness to ~750deg by waving a ~3,000deg wand over the outside of your brass.
And with that, you actually have no idea what temperatures your brass cross section ever reached.
So it seems that folks compare a shading of temper against something like new Lapua brass, assuming this is what they want.
But what does that coloring really mean? Lapua likely FULL annealed before final forming (which work hardened it), and you get a case that's a good hardness -that caries that temper shading along.
But YOU do not ever want to full anneal.
What you want is a process annealing, that is a mere stress relieving. Partial/useful recovery of grain structure.
And with this, there is no little to no tempering of brass.

Given brass taken to excess temperatures, timing becomes critical to success. The grain structure changes at a temperature based rate.
But you don't even know the temperatures, so timing becomes a trial & error affair.
With the right timing per a given exposure, you can reach a usable outcome.
Not too low as to be ineffective. Not too high as to full anneal, or worse, burn the zinc out of alloy.

Dip annealing simplifies all this, because you're exposing the brass cross section (inside and outside) to the CORRECT temperature.
There is no timing needed, and you don't cause or rely on the tempering of excess temperatures.
There is no way to get anything but a perfect process anneal.
It's idiot-proof.

Your right about the dip method as long as you have a sufficient heating element to keep the salt at a constant temp, most times it will cool and you will need to wait for it to warm up, as far as you other assumptions I totally disagree as I have done hardness and grain restructuring test with a torch and it works just fine, there is no need to take such a simple thing and over complicate it to the point that nobody understands it, To the OP, its this simple set your machine up in a dark room set it to where the neck turns soft orange, if your flame changes color it's too long, anneal them and Let Her Eat, I don't clean before I anneal but that's just me, And that's a great looking rig you have built ,If you have any problems just give me a holler 812-264-6183

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

View attachment 296164

Really nice try to make your own annealer. Very inventive like so many others. When you ever decide on a very exact system to anneal and ditch the torch and get an AMP!.
I myself like to save money and try to invent reloading systems/tools. I found that after all my time and effort the best way to to go with a proven product. Then build off of it - if you have better solutions and improvements.
BUY ONCE AND CRY ONCE!. I should have listened to this saying many years ago. However i have made some improvements on existing products. I finally went a got an AMP after trials and disappointments. Could not be HAPPIER!.
I also, after many years got a Todd Henderson Trimmer and a CPS (Competition Primer System) from Primal Fear - did a few of my own mods.

 

[entoptics]

....

Dip annealing simplifies all this, because you're exposing the brass cross section (inside and outside) to the CORRECT temperature.
There is no timing needed, and you don't cause or rely on the tempering of excess temperatures.
There is no way to get anything but a perfect process anneal.
It's idiot-proof.

IYO, what is the "correct" temperature and duration? Say for "large rifle" brass in the neighborhood of 30-06, 7 mag, etc...

 

[ButterBean]

Really nice try to make your own annealer. Very inventive like so many others. When you ever decide on a very exact system to anneal and ditch the torch and get an AMP!.
I myself like to save money and try to invent reloading systems/tools. I found that after all my time and effort the best way to to go with a proven product. Then build off of it - if you have better solutions and improvements.
BUY ONCE AND CRY ONCE!. I should have listened to this saying many years ago. However i have made some improvements on existing products. I finally went a got an AMP after trials and disappointments. Could not be HAPPIER!.
I also, after many years got a Todd Henderson Trimmer and a CPS (Competition Primer System) from Primal Fear - did a few of my own mods.

Really nice try to make your own annealer. Very inventive like so many others. When you ever decide on a very exact system to anneal and ditch the torch and get an AMP!.
I myself like to save money and try to invent reloading systems/tools. I found that after all my time and effort the best way to to go with a proven product. Then build off of it - if you have better solutions and improvements.
BUY ONCE AND CRY ONCE!. I should have listened to this saying many years ago. However i have made some improvements on existing products. I finally went a got an AMP after trials and disappointments. Could not be HAPPIER!.
I also, after many years got a Todd Henderson Trimmer and a CPS (Competition Primer System) from Primal Fear - did a few of my own mods.

I mean no offense but there is no trying, he built a nice machine

 

[nealm66]

What's that now............... How far the jump is? .................. Splain please

Well, it's just what I've noticed. So if you have a 6mm creed for example and your crowding the lands, it seems you can shoot multiple times and keep good to excellent accuracy. Now try that with a weatherby magnum with a lot of freebore and it will start falling off about 3 firings and seems to get worse from there. If the annealing isn't done consistently, the accuracy never seems to be quite as good. Again, this is what I've noticed.

 

[ButterBean]

Well, it's just what I've noticed. So if you have a 6mm creed for example and your crowding the lands, it seems you can shoot multiple times and keep good to excellent accuracy. Now try that with a weatherby magnum with a lot of freebore and it will start falling off about 3 firings and seems to get worse from there. If the annealing isn't done consistently, the accuracy never seems to be quite as good. Again, this is what I've noticed.

Crowding the lands and freebore have nothing to do with annealing or the intervals at which brass should be or need annealed

 

[Veteran]

It makes no difference what temp the torch is, it's all about how long its in the heat

ButterBean, please explain this a bit more? If a torch is 2000 degrees doesn't it mean the time would be less than if the torch is only
750 degrees? Ie, isn't there a correlation between the temperature and the time required? I think there is a correlation not only with
the temperature of the torch, but the size of the case, composition of the brass, and that all of these factors are technically correlated.
Am I wrong? Please explain.

 

[Tac-O]

Your right about the dip method as long as you have a sufficient heating element to keep the salt at a constant temp, most times it will cool and you will need to wait for it to warm up, as far as you other assumptions I totally disagree as I have done hardness and grain restructuring test with a torch and it works just fine, there is no need to take such a simple thing and over complicate it to the point that nobody understands it, To the OP, its this simple set your machine up in a dark room set it to where the neck turns soft orange, if your flame changes color it's too long, anneal them and Let Her Eat, I don't clean before I anneal but that's just me, And that's a great looking rig you have built ,If you have any problems just give me a holler 812-264-6183

Bean, I use the torch and drill method and really seem to struggle with consistency. I used to put my drill in a bench vice with tape on the trigger and have the torch standing in the correct spot, but the drill wouldn't stay at a consistent speed and with shorter cases it's very hard to get the case in and out of the socket in the dark with consistent timing.

So I started using my cordless drill and holding it by hand so it's easier to move in and out of the flame. Still hard to get consistency.

I also found that with thicker brass like Peterson, it's much harder to see the neck just start to glow without going too far and getting a flame color change.

I also use a metronome for timing, but with the other struggles the glow doesn't seem to happen at consistent times... 6 seconds versus 7.

Suggestions?

 

[ButterBean]

ButterBean, please explain this a bit more? If a torch is 2000 degrees doesn't it mean the time would be less than if the torch is only
750 degrees? Ie, isn't there a correlation between the temperature and the time required? I think there is a correlation not only with
the temperature of the torch, but the size of the case, composition of the brass, and that all of these factors are technically correlated.
Am I wrong? Please explain.

It's all about how long it's in the flame, And yes case size and brass composition are all relevant, I have had many a heated discussion on this subject over the years here so I'll give you the short version, I am lucky enough to be in the industry where I can test brass hardness ( HV) and molecular structure and I have found it's really simple, A dark room, brass in a drill heated to a soft orange glow yields the same results as the AMP annealed brass, I've even done it by hand with the same results, Really, It's that simple

 

[Tac-O]

ButterBean, please explain this a bit more? If a torch is 2000 degrees doesn't it mean the time would be less than if the torch is only
750 degrees? Ie, isn't there a correlation between the temperature and the time required? I think there is a correlation not only with
the temperature of the torch, but the size of the case, composition of the brass, and that all of these factors are technically correlated.
Am I wrong? Please explain.

That is correct. I think he was just making a general statement that didn't include the details you did.

 

[ButterBean]

Bean, I use the torch and drill method and really seem to struggle with consistency. I used to put my drill in a bench vice with tape on the trigger and have the torch standing in the correct spot, but the drill wouldn't stay at a consistent speed and with shorter cases it's very hard to get the case in and out of the socket in the dark with consistent timing.

So I started using my cordless drill and holding it by hand so it's easier to move in and out of the flame. Still hard to get consistency.

I also found that with thicker brass like Peterson, it's much harder to see the neck just start to glow without going too far and getting a flame color change.

I also use a metronome for timing, but with the other struggles the glow doesn't seem to happen at consistent times... 6 seconds versus 7.

Suggestions?

Your trying to hard Brother, Give me a call this evening 812-264-6183

 

[Tac-O]

Will do

 

[Mikecr]

What Mike said.
I dropped the torch method several years ago.Even with Templaq you can easily over heat the brass and ruin it as I did it with high quality brass and I now use salt bath method.Some say it's not as perfect as the induction method but at least I have not ruined brass except when I did it too long in the salt to see what happens.The brass was so soft it crushed the shoulder when trying to load a bullet in the dummy brass so salt bath annealing does work,maybe not perfect as the AMP but well enough for me.

There is NO better process annealing than dip annealing, as there is no way to improve on the right temperature to begin with.
You cannot full anneal with dip annealing. It isn't possible, because the temperature is below 1200degF, which is required for full annealing. In contrast, you could easily full anneal with a flame, or with miscalculated induction.
If you managed to collapse shoulders, your seating forces were in extreme.

IYO, what is the "correct" temperature and duration? Say for "large rifle" brass in the neighborhood of 30-06, 7 mag, etc...

It doesn't matter what the cartridge brass is with dip annealing. I set anywhere in 750-850degF. When my temperature measure reads stable in this range, It's ready for dipping. But you could dip at 650 or 1,000 it doesn't really matter, because the grain only grows so much at these temps,,, it happens in a couple seconds or a couple hours just the same.
Cold brass does soak a little heat off the bath, but not much at all, and this is a huge range which you would not stray from with any number of single cases. We're talking a couple degrees, as the bath has a lot more mass than the brass in contact, and it's not as temperature conductive.

To suggest that I make too much of this is just opposite of what I'm doing.
I'm trying to help get this much RIGHT, and I know of no simpler way to do just that.

Personally, I've dip annealed with pure lead for decades. That is not easy, and I didn't do this to save money or effort.
I did it because I know it's the best.
In all this time it still wouldn't surprise me if I'm one of a mere handful living who can pull off lead dip annealing successfully.
But now we have salt bath.
ANYBODY can do this. ANYBODY can anneal every case, to any depth, exactly the same. It's cheap and there is no way to get it wrong.