Cartridge selection process.??

[Boyd Heaton]

Part of what 4mesh said was right about the RUM..My gun had a light taper barrel and was put together as a hunting gun,not a match gun.The light gun score world record is held by a 300 RUM.I now shoot a 300 wsm for my match gun...BUT,At the end of match season it will be reamed out to 300 RUM.One other thing is that I shot the SAME brass all year in my light gun.Another thing 4mesh did'nt say is that 2 of the 300 RUM's that shoot down there are FACTORY gun's

.I have many 1000 yard target's from my ultra that I can cover the first 5 or 6 with my hand.Then heat in a small dia barrel got the best of it.I've never shot 5 shot's at a deer

.So for my LR hunting gun's the 300 RUM is the ticket

 

[Guest]

4mesh,
As far as the guns (calibers)listed in the 1000yrd report that is poppycock. The info listed may be far from the truth. There is a lot of smoke screening going on in that organization. Ya know "Top Secret" stuff.

Unless you see what each individual is shooting assume nothing..LOL

 

[Mysticplayer]

Jake, a lot has to do with appropriate bullets. Over the last few years, we have seen lots of VLD bullets in smaller calibres. These now make smaller cal. viable for LR hunting.

Before, the 1000yd BR game was the domain of the big 30cals. Today, 6BR is doing very well.

For LR hunting, you have to set your parameters for the size of game, distance to game, weight of rifle, supporting equipment, etc. The parameters discussed on this board are based on years of shooting and killing game animals. So we know they work. However, within those parameters, there is a lot of options and opinions on the "right" or best way to do it.

If a reasonable weight/constructed hunting bullet of normal calibre arrives fast enough to allow sufficient expansion and penetration to do terminal damage to the vital organs, the animal is yours.

How you get there is up to you, your personal opinions on firearms/cartridges, and your wallet.

All the different cartridge we enjoy were created due to a perceived need or new idea. Marketing/fashion and sales has as much to do with this development as actual gains on game. Our industry enjoys creating a problem then offering a solution for a fee.

Most everything we need for hunting was designed before the 1900's. The highly accurate bullets and large cases we use today just allow us to perform the same tasks at much further ranges.

Jerry

 

[BountyHunter]

338-378

You might find some "fudging" on bullets and powder loads used, but the calibers are pretty much on the money, at least in the IBS. Someone wanting to see the calibers used can find accurate info, but loads may not be accurate. Lot of guys run loads on the ragged edge and do not want anyone to start with their load in someone elses gun.

If you shoot in PA, then you well know the secrecy with the mystery 6.5 bullet shot by one family. Supposedly a limited run 136 gr custom bullet from one bullet maker who has agreed to not make them for anyone else or at least that is one variation of the truth.

NC had one winning guy who was posting his powder as "RL 27" (does not exist). He would tell everyone he was "making" it by adding one lb of Blue Dot to 5 lbs of RL 25 (do not anyone do this, it was a joke!!!). Powder company finally called him and told him to stop as they were getting too many calls for RL 27 and could not believe he was doing that, especially after they heard how it was "made". They had told him previously there was "no demand for anything slower than RL 25", so he had decided to prove them wrong. However they are experimenting with a RL 27 equivalent and he is first in line to test.

However, most guys are very helpfull especially to new guys. They know are no competition anyway. Ask the questions, and chances are you will get honest answers.

Good Luck

BH

 

[Guest]

BH,
What I was referring to was that the caliber listed in the 1000yrd report may or may not be the actual caliber used for that particular match. Unless you specify each match what you are shooting, your initial registry will reflect every time you shoot.
Some guys use different rifles (calibers) in different matchs. Just because a particular caliber was not listed in that particular match does not mean it wasn't there.

 

[Brent]

I wondered about the RL27 he listed, thought it was a misprint though. Interesting.

S1,
do you heat treat the Newlons when your done, send them back to Troy for him to do it or just use them as is? I plan on getting one for a neck sizer, so it wouldn't need to have any treating done and the chamber reamer will work for this neck sizing only situation.

Guys with winning scores are not necessarily shooting the tightest grouping guns, they are the winners in that game and are shooting the best to win in that game. The guy that shoots a 3" group and can't keep them all in the 10 ring will loose! The guy that shoots a 6" group and keeps them all in the 10 ring will win. Who has the most accurate rifle? Who is the best doper? Who is the smartest 1000 yard player?

Another way to view the group size, if it's a larger one, is that the wind took a bullet way out and a 3" group that now went to a 6" group with one bad wind call. The correction to keep the score high was made and all subsequent shots were held to the opposite side just in case. The "X" count may be smaller but the score will stay higher avoiding the 9 ring. The group shooter may be inclined to take his chances, where the score shooter knows better.

I'm not a cometition shooter, but have learned a few ways these savy score shooters beat the not so savy.

Unless you know the circumstances each group was shot and corrected for, the data is pretty subjective as far as group size goes, at least there is that big possibility other thing were at play.

The shear number of shooters using a certain cartridge will skew the averages too. Averages are often inconclusive in a large lot or a small lot either way.

I noticed that the percentage of people dropping the 30 cal and others combined was nearly the same amount the 6.5mm actually picked up in percentage, that would indicate a shift to 6.5 at least. Is it just a fad, who knows yet, the grass is always greener on the other side for many.

 

[4mesh063]

Brent, The shift you noticed is going to get more pronounced. I know of several shooters switching to 6mm and 6.5 guns this year, dropping 30 cals. As for the score guy and group guy, that also is correct. Hard to beleive as I find it, many very good shooters do not care about score or group, depending upon the game they play. What I don't get is, why would a person with a gun that shoots great groups, not put the group in the center of the page. I saw a group last year that was 5.?? inches with a 0 score. Now, how is that possible? It was windy, but, not windy enough to open up to 6".


338, Yes I know several shooters shoot different guns and don't bother with the paperwork. I know a few who actually have chosen the gun of the day while standing looking at the firing line and say , yep, it's betsy today cause of the wind.

Most times, the listing is pretty accurate. I do know that KS shot a 6mm and won the LG Group Agg with it. At no time did he borrow Larrys 338!!


Bounty, the secret bulet is not as secret as everyone may think. It also , is not the secret.

S1, You'll be happy to know that I have shot deer with a 22, 55Gr Ballistic tips, 450-520 yards, and they're deader than sticks. Never moved a muscle. I love those things in the small cals. I just don't like them in anything 7mm or 30. I'd just as soon shoot a match bullet. As you say though, loose all energy in the animal and your not gonna chase very far.

Boyd, the point was, the smaller gun is gonna get it done for ya. The bigger one didn't. I'd bet that your biggest group this year will be 10" smaller than the worst one last year. Even ignore any conditions. The new gun is gonna shoot. Cheaper, cooler, better.

Jake, If you have the 280AI, why the question in the first place? But, no, you wouldn't have to buy another bolt for the action provided you were willing to champfer the shroud a little. The 280AI and WSM, unless I'm mistaken, are the same bolt face. The 555 number is just the case body, the base is only 512 on a WSM. Same as any belted mag.

To whom it concerns on the die makeing with a chamber reamer... My gun has no reamer, nor do my dies. I have dies at all sorts of sizes, in varying shapes depending upon the condition I am trying to fix. I have em to do necks .0025 and bodys .0015. 2 and 3, 3 and 1, 3 and 0, body only, loaded round, shoulder without neck OR body, ... So, for what it's worth, I didn't make the dies with the "chamber reamer" and have troubles. I simply didn't like the Ackley shoulder I did the first time so I canned it. Now it's got 150 and 125 radii. MUCH easier to deal with. Still a 40 degree shoulder, just VERY little of it. The WSM at least eliminates one of the AI angles with a 120 radius. AND, it's the important one at the neck transition. They just didn't want to have it look like a WS Weatherby so they opted to have a sharp shoulder to body transition and that's a small price to pay for such a nice commercially produced cartridge that's a class A die format.

S1, FWIW, the steel will sometimes shrink slightly, but not enough for resizing a large magnum case. Perhaps a 6ppc guy could get away with that because they hardly size anyhow, but, a 7mag guy will not be happy at about the 3rd firing. I'd be very surprised to see .0005 on a 1/2" hole. Steels that shrink even that much are gonna be pretty hard on a reamer. I don't think I'd want to take a peice of D2 and a chamber reamer and see which one gave up first! Nitriding a peice of CRS or 4100 series, you will have to polish the surface when it's done, even in a vacume furnace, and you will most likely loose and shrinkage you got when done polishing. Typically, I've heard of guys ordering a reamer separately for dies. It's not a real big deal to grind the SECOND reamer, it's the first one that the mfgr doesn't like.

PS, for S1. My lymans reload manual has a chart for energy to kill certain game. It says that my Swift won't kill a woodchuck at 100yds!! Ask the woodchucks what they think!

 

[4mesh063]

S1, you'll be happy to hear, 2 of them were off a bipod. Harris swivel, extendable, 1 prone, 1 sitting.

 

[Guest]

4MESH,

I hope you're taking pictures of all those long-range kills, some people are hard to convince. We started the video thing, and photographing wound cavities. Glad to see there's a few people out here making long-range kills off of a bi-pod. You better be careful though, that bi-pod shooting can lead to stronger addictions. Soon you will find yourself buying a real rangefinder, comparing different drag bag designs, and purchasing used Ghillie suits from Chris Jamison!

Don't worry though, you can be brought back from the abyss by shooting a few 1000 yard benchrest matches. Unless of course you have already started studying the wind and things like mirage, in this case there will be no hope. Once reading the wind gets into your blood it spreads to other organs, and your demise will soon follow.

Seriously though, nice shooting!

 

[4mesh063]

Even with all the camera equip I have, Medium format and all, no I don't take pictures. The deer, I never even went out to get. My brother wanted them so he bought my hunting licence. My dad died of Lyme so I don't touch em. I just shoot em. That ought to get the "Hunting" guys in a frienzy.

Actually, I like smaller targets. My longest crow I got at 52? and many in the 400's. As you would guess, all 1 shot. (you don't get 2 at crows) Until this 2002 hunting season, I had never shot even AT game off a bench. I love the Bipod cause it's 1.5# and at least as good as a tripod rig, if not better.

Yes, I'll come back from the abyss to do some match shooting. Trouble with reading wind at them is that when shooting for group against guys who look like a robot, you have to minimize conditions by going fast. I HAVE seen at least one person at the range who is very good at beating the wind, but that's the exception and not the rule. He and his wife come every week from MI to PA and shoots a 6BR. With the trees swaying in the 10th relay one day I saw him shoot a 6" group for which I was in the pits on the target. He was the last person done shooting and his last shot was more than 1minute from the 9th. Without a doubt, the best display of wind reading I've ever witnessed. WAY better than me on a lucky day. He's a little tight lipped about technique though. Real nice folks. If you don't get to spend time around someone who's good at something, you can't get better very fast. That's my problem. I don't have anyone who knows anything about wind or mirage to teach me. Many are happy to tell me they do. I know at least enough to know that they don't.

We at our range don't have a lot of flags. You have spinners at the benches, a flag at about 200, another couple at around 5, 7 and at the target. The grass is mowed and there's little else to look at and see air movement. We shoot over rolling hills, both long and side to side. The flags at the target are useless. The others are out of anyones field of view in thier scope so it takes what seems to be an eternity to check them. yea, I can just look up and wing it, but, to get a GOOD look at a flag at 700 yards, you need to use your optics and at my skill level, I'm better off just sending em down there and save some time.

Keep bi-poddin. I thought about trying it at the range this year. We have a rule that allows a different rear bag when using a bipod and I may give it a go by adding a swivel to my stock. I can make a mount for the harris and use it on heavy gun day. On light gun day, it's gonna be overweight. We had some folks come down from Canada last year and shoot prone a couple times. No bipod, just prone. One guy shot a 40 something and a woman shot a 52 I beleive. That's remarkable to get 10 on and score a 40-50 with NO rest. I was impressed. 308's too! Space gun looking things. They were just havin fun. How it ought to be.

Talk to ya later, happy shootin.

 

[Guest]

Howdy Brent,

I have had excellent results with the
Blanks just reaming them and not heat treating. We are full-length sizing and and using coated neck bushings. The dies are cut using a high-pressure fluid system,and have tremendous surface finish right off the reamer. I cannot imagine that you would have to heat treat a neck die.

4Mesh,

I am also a fan of the small fast bullet. Two seasons ago, my buddies and I killed over 30 deer, and took photographs of most of the wound cavities. The wound ballistic champ was a .243 imp. Shooting a 65 gr. V-max about 3800 fps. I believe the size of the exit wound would compare favorably to two balled up fists of a man with extra large hands. The 140 lb. doe was dead before she hit the ground!

We like to do a lot of neck shooting of deer and antelope, so very fast light frangible bullets are very popular in this neck of the woods. I am of the opinion that the only thing that needs to be tracked are terrorists.

 

[BountyHunter]

S1

You are right, more than one way to skin that cat. But they must do something to add some resize capability other than just use a normal chamber reamer. Others build an insert that goes into a die body and is compressed down. Lots of ways, but got to do something other than just chamber a die.

BH

 

[Jake in NC]

Sorry for the lax response time.. I've been at load development camp again..

4mesh063..This particular .280AI is for all intents and purposes a done project.. References I've made to it are from a previous project in the same caliber.. The question stands because projects are never-ending for me (And a bunch of others here, I'd wager..

) And as this one nears completion another is looming..
.. If I'm not mistaken the boltface for the WSM's are standard magnum.. The .280 is 30-06/.308 head sized.. I wouldn't open up a custom action bolt.. Having both a magnum and a standard bolt would be attractive and open up a lot of options.. But in order to be worth it there would have to be some significant gain in going with the bigger cartridges.. Hence, this post.. How far do I have to go to get that "significant" gain and is it based in fact or myth.??
..Sortof kindof not really on topic but just this past few days I was working on something for the Hickory Egg Shoot.. At 300 yards my little Sako .17Mk4(30gr BergerMEF's) outshot my Unlimited BR rifle in PPC(68gr Bart's).. Myth has it that the .17 is a poor choice for wind shooting.. But yesterday and the day before I proved different.. Gene's 6/.284 took a whoopin from the .17 also.. (No,I'm not even thinking about any big game hunting with the .17:rolleyes

d:^) JiNC

 

[4mesh063]

Sorry Jake,

I was thinking the bolt face was similar. Going to a WSM from a Belted mag DOES require a small amount of work, but, does not render the gun unusable for standard belted mags (was what I was getting at). I thought you had a .512 base.