can i shoot berger out of my WSM?

[Tikkamike]

This isnt a mathematical debate. I am not a mathematician and I dont know if thats the formula used to figure energy or not. Is your formula Kinetic or gravitational energy? I dont know. but I do know energy is a pretty worthless random number in our application. sectional density is what gets you home, no 2 ways about it.

 

[4xforfun]

This isnt a mathematical debate. I am not a mathematician and I dont know if thats the formula used to figure energy or not. Is your formula Kinetic or gravitational energy? I dont know. but I do know energy is a pretty worthless random number in our application. sectional density is what gets you home, no 2 ways about it.

Not my formula....all I did was convert the weight of a baseball into grains and converted 90 MPH tp FPS so I could imput it into my Sierra I-6 program.....all 5th grade math. The I-6 will not except weight in oz's or speed in MPH. I am sure that the exball and Nightforce programs will comferm.

 

[Tikkamike]

ok, you win. Congratulations, I stand corrected, etc.. ...now back to you OP

 

[liltank]

ok, you win. Congratulations, I stand corrected, etc.. ...now back to you OP

185 Berger, refer to my other post for specifics. It probably got lost between you two discussing math.

 

[Tikkamike]

I do love me a good math Debate.... almost as a berger/barnes debate. I am gonna leave this one alone though haha

 

[Outlaw6.0]

There are a lot of good choices out there for your WSM, especially with the yardage that you are looking to harvest animals. The 185 VLD will work at the extended ranges on a broadside shot, no doubt. My doubt lies on a 50yd shot where velocity is still very high. For the 210-230 Bergers fine, not for the 185 I don't really trust an unbonded bullets of that weight close up at high velocity. I'm not saying it WILL fail, i'm saying there is a chance. (bring on the hate mail)

I shoot a 7.82 Lazzeroni Patriot, which is pretty similar to your WSM, just shorter & fatter. I started with the 150 TSX, shot bugholes with ES & SD in the single digits, unfortunately about 300 fps slower than what I "thought" I needed. I then moved to the 180 MRX (the tungsten cored TTSX) @3150fps. Shot good, low BC & discontinued. Switched to the 168TTSX @ 3300+fps & love it so far. I would have zero issues with whackin a critter at 600 with this combo. My next move will be to the 175LRX, pickup .033 in BC & very little loss in velocity.

You will be somewhat hindered by wanting to use your mag box. Especially with the heavy weights. With the yardage you intend to shoot, the monometals will work fine, stick with the tipped versions. If you really intend to stretch it out. Then you will be single loading the 208's, 210's, 215's or 230's.


Just my .002. Accuracy is FAR more important than energy.

 

[4xforfun]

You are right...it ISN'T a math debate. I was simply correcting a line of complete BS....before someone else states it as fact because they "read it on the internet" someplace. And sorry, but energy IS a factor. As is bullet performance, as is frontal area, as is bullet design, as is ........

Find what shoots best in your gun and shoot it. I didn't see a problem with the 180 class bullets mentioned here. The 180 class is certainly a better all around coice for LRH than the 160 class, IMO. Not as good as the 200+ gr. IMO. I shoot Bergers and love the hell out of them. Tikka loves his accubonds...another great bullet. As far as bullet length, the VLD Bergers have a slightly longer nose (from the ojive forward)...there isn't much more bullet from the ojive back to the base than any other BT bullet, so the Berger won't take up any more boiler room (powder space) than the Accubond or the Sierra. So don't even consider the bullet length as a factor, unless you have a SERIOUSLY short mag length. As far as bullet design....no doubt that the accubond is a tougher bullet...but....here is the Ford Vs Chevy argument....what is better....penatration or fragmentation. You will NEVER get everyone to agree on that....ford vs chevy. Accubond and Barns on one end and the balistic tip on the other...with Berger and Sierra some where in between.

You are on the right track with the heavier bullit. Most here will agree, although it seems that there are a few (speed kills ) lighter/faster is better holdouts. I think you have already jumped on the bigger bullet bandwagon.

Welcome abord!!!

Tod

 

[liltank]

You are right...it ISN'T a math debate. I was simply correcting a line of complete BS....before someone else states it as fact because they "read it on the internet" someplace. And sorry, but energy IS a factor. As is bullet performance, as is frontal area, as is bullet design, as is ........

Find what shoots best in your gun and shoot it. I didn't see a problem with the 180 class bullets mentioned here. The 180 class is certainly a better all around coice for LRH than the 160 class, IMO. Not as good as the 200+ gr. IMO. I shoot Bergers and love the hell out of them. Tikka loves his accubonds...another great bullet. As far as bullet length, the VLD Bergers have a slightly longer nose (from the ojive forward)...there isn't much more bullet from the ojive back to the base than any other BT bullet, so the Berger won't take up any more boiler room (powder space) than the Accubond or the Sierra. So don't even consider the bullet length as a factor, unless you have a SERIOUSLY short mag length. As far as bullet design....no doubt that the accubond is a tougher bullet...but....here is the Ford Vs Chevy argument....what is better....penatration or fragmentation. You will NEVER get everyone to agree on that....ford vs chevy. Accubond on one end and the balistic tip on the other...with Berger and Sierra some where in between.

You are on the right track with the heavier bullit. Most here will agree, although it seems that there are a few (speed kills ) lighter/faster is better holdouts. I think you have already jumped on the bigger bullet bandwagon.

Welcome abord!!!

Tod

Dodge!

 

[Wheatgerm]

thanks guys ill have to try berger then. the reason i was worried about the seating being too long is because im just outside the seasing "mark" on my 165gr sst and they are almost into the grooves already. also i only have about 1/16 in or a little more room in my magazine box. im pretty new to reloading but i was just thinking if a 165 bullet is bearly fitting then a bigger and longer bullet probably wouldnt fit without haveing to seat it deaper into the brass (witch is what i thought you werent supposed to do with bergers).

4x, are you suggesting i shoot the 190 or 210 vld? wouldnt that really leave a big hole if i decided to go hunt something smaller than an elk one season?
i think my gun could kick the 190 out just shy of the 3000 mark. but it just seems like a monster bullet to me

 

[Franklin]

You can install a wyatt extended magazine and gain about .110 in length if needed with the berger. I've killed 3 elk with the 190vld and even though they piled up the one bull was only about 250 yds and it did not penetrate to the vitals, so it took a second shot. If your going to be shooting elk with bergers go as heavy as you can and don't look back and they will work great.

 

[liltank]

You would think from all the chatter that in the lands is where you need to be, but after talking with winning benchrest shooters shooting Berger's, they have a different plan. A lot of guys in Williamsport have been seating their Berger's from .075"-.100" deep in the brass. So if they are too long, start sinking them and find the second accuracy node deep seating the bullet.

 

[4xforfun]

thanks guys ill have to try berger then. the reason i was worried about the seating being too long is because im just outside the seasing "mark" on my 165gr sst and they are almost into the grooves already. also i only have about 1/16 in or a little more room in my magazine box. im pretty new to reloading but i was just thinking if a 165 bullet is bearly fitting then a bigger and longer bullet probably wouldnt fit without haveing to seat it deaper into the brass (witch is what i thought you werent supposed to do with bergers).

4x, are you suggesting i shoot the 190 or 210 vld? wouldnt that really leave a big hole if i decided to go hunt something smaller than an elk one season?
i think my gun could kick the 190 out just shy of the 3000 mark. but it just seems like a monster bullet to me

First, the reason for the bigger bullet is BC. I know, I know, BC has never killed anything. But with a higher BC comes higher velocitys at extended ranges. It doesn't take long for a slower, higher BC bullet to catch up and pass the FPS of a smaller, faster, lower BC bullet at distance. With higher impact speeds come more energy, but more importantly, the bullet is more apt to open up (mushroom) at the higher speeds.The bullets are both .308...so the hole will be the same....going in. The 210 with it's higher impact speed and higher SD may give you an exit wound AND be more apt to open up and do some tissue damage along the way. My thoughts are that if both bullets exit, there won't be a noticably "bigger hole". (Just my .02 on that point, never done any testing). And, actually, at close range I would say the the bigger, slower bullet would do LESS tissue damage...the faster bullet may have a tendancy to explode inside and leave no exit wound or a HUGE exit hole.

And seriously, if you were worried about "overkill" you would be shoting a 250 savage or 243, right. I mean...I can and do streach out my 6mm Dashers and 6-47L out to 500 - 600 yards on deer with the 105 VLD...broadside or close to it, of course. In fact, my Jr. PETA member has killed several at well over 500 yards, starting when he was 10 years old.

Like I said earlier, the concensis, and rightly so, is to shoot bigger, higher BC bullets for LR hunting. The difference being that some might not like the Berger because it has the word "match" in it's title and would prefer an accubond or barns, or partition, or........Ford vs Che.....I mean Dodge.

PS, I just caught the word "elk". Didn't catch that earlier.....in this case, what I said is doubly true....and....there is no such thing as "to big a hole" when it comes to elk.

 

[Wheatgerm]

yes, mainly elk gun. but dont want to be too big for deer. ive seen a few bulls take a beating with 7mm and 300's. last year i DUMPED my bull with the .270 with a 140 gr sst. (the 300wsm was still in the works) ive heard some horror stories about the bergers at under 300 blowing up before they have ever gotten any penetration and this does scare me a little. because i want to be ready for the long shot but i tend to stumble across one close to me quite frequently

as for the seating depth ill just try it i guess? i can always go back to the other bullets right? lets face it, none of us are saving money in this hobby lol

 

[bigngreen]

There are three 300 WSM's in the group I hunt with and all have gone with the 190 Berger. Last years biggest bull was double tapped at 90 yards, one behind and one through the shoulders and both bullets did awesome with the one that cleaned out both shoulders ending under the hide, poured the internals out. Same rifle was used for a cow right at 800 yards no problemo! I've seriously tried to blow up Berger bullets and I never have, I've never seen evidence of one opening prior to entering the chest cavity, so far the Berger is the only one I've not seen fail on and elk shoulder but I've shot a lot more elk with Barnes but I got over that We seat them way deep and in my 300 WBY they are seated in as far as you can before the ogive starts into the neck and they shoot outstanding.