Can I get less than half MOA from "MY" factory barrel.

[Lefty7mmstw]

Bart and I don't agree on a lot of things, but I do also believe that a good fl case is the best way to go. I hunt in some nasty temps and am often miles away from my truck for tools, so I refuse to let ammo be a possible problem. I don't run my bullets into to the rifling either, but that's another thread for another day. I get 1/2 moa out of fl brass, what do I care if I could shave a few thousandths off of a group but get the round stuck when it's -20degrees outside.

 

[ajhardle]

I just shot my best 5 shot group from this rifle. Believe it or not, hornady 75 gr match factory loads. All I had to do was wake up early and start shooting before the sun touched ground. Measured .267" @100 yards. First group of the day...... maybe it likes a cold barrel.

 

[chip cochran]

I guess what I'm getting at is that if I am spending so much time to create perfect loads, but not getting them to shoot better than decent loads, maybe my barrel is the problem.

How much time are you spending on proper breathing pattering? Is your preshot routine exactly the same round after round after round? as long as your loads are consistant you should be able to shoot small groups if you are practicing everything else. When I shoot at 1500 meters it is much more me that it is the rifle making the bad shots. In school I spent more time practicing my breath pattern so I always pulled the trigger while in dead space (between breaths) with out thinking about it. I also practiced the art of aiming, sighting through the scope with my body in exactly the same position so the shots would be as consistant as possible.

I see people at the range trying and trying to get small groups, but they aren't paying attention to the things the human body does to each shot. If you are not in control of you, then don't expect the weapon to perform its best.

If you suspect it is the rifle, use a bench rest that fastens to the weapon so it doesn't move at all, use a pull string for the trigger and see how small the groups are that way. Those groups of three shots will be or should be, the best your rifle is capable of. Then go from there since this gives you the true bench mark for that weapon.

 

[ajhardle]

I do shoot between breathes, but when shooting from a rest, being calm and cool seems to make the difference. My technique behind the trigger is well enough, but it looks like my problem has been not shooting 70 gr bergers. I've got some excellent groups so far, and I just started working up a load. 1/4 moa looks like no problem, but hopefully I can get a node with higher velocities to shoot just as well.

 

[tim1457]

I agree with Chip....The biggest differences in group sizes are probably due more to human error than rifle capability. I just sold my Savage FTR in .308 ( just didn't have the time to spend shooting with everything else going on and yes I'll probably regret it) and spent much time at the range tweaking bullet seating depth, powders and weights, bullets, etc. I finally settled on shooting the Berger 155.5 gr. match. I was able to shoot my best, a 3 shot .524" group at 300 yards. I came close to this several times which told me the rifle was very capable but the other factors (wind, temp., my shooting performance that day) was not always up to par. if you shot a nice group (and I see you did), then your rifle is very capable of repeating that consistantly. Unfortunately, human error and mother nature are there to make consistancy difficult. Remember, practice, practice, practice, is the key.gun)

 

[ajhardle]

Actually, the difference for me looks like it was at the bench. I just started with a new batch of brass and group sizes are consistently smaller than before. Hopefully they stay accurate for the life of the cases. Before I was neck sizing and reduced my runout to almost nothing, but they didn't shoot any better than 3 to 4 1/1000's rounout. Maybe my chamber isn't perfect or do I need to measure somewhere other than the neck and bullet for runout?

 

[Bart B]

if you shot a nice group (and I see you did), then your rifle is very capable of repeating that consistantly.

Consistantly? I disagree.

Even rail guns used indoors and virtually untouched by humans used for testing bullets' accuracy seldom repeat the smallest 2% of their groups. It happens about once every 50 groups.

 

[chip cochran]

Glad you found a bullet that will work well for your rig, I've found that for best accuracy for me means 5-7 reloads max on a case. Consistancy is relevant to several things, one of which is heat build up in the barrel and action. I've made notes on first group sets that are not as tight as one would expect from my rig. My best groups as far as tightness are usually sets 3 through 6 (3 shot set), then the groups will start to wander away which is caused by the barrel heat.

I have also found that projectiles can be expected to have minute variations with in a batch, which means you have to spec each one out and group them so you can get as much consistancy as possible.

 

[ajhardle]

I was hoping to get more life out of my brass. Only in a benchrest chamber I suppose. On another note, out of my last 35 groups, only unfired brass has shot in the .20's. Second firings has produced a few .30's.

 

[Bart B]

My best groups as far as tightness are usually sets 3 through 6 (3 shot set), then the groups will start to wander away which is caused by the barrel heat.

Which means your barrel's either not stress relieved properly and/or fit to the receiver correctly. Properly done for both, good barrels can put dozens of shots fired 30 seconds apart into sub MOA groups at 600 yards or further provided the barrel's not touching anything except the receiver; no pad under the chamber area whatsoever. Arsenal's been doing that with their best lots of match ammo from test barrels for decades and their ammo's not quite as accurate as good handloads have done fired the same way.

Bolt action match rifles, properly tested, fired 10 times in a minute will shoot sub 1/2 MOA at 300 yards. They'll also shoot sub 3/4 MOA at 1000 fired every 30 to 40 seconds for 25 to 30 shots which is normal in competition. So will hunting rifles properly built with the right stuff. Best test of barrel heat and receiver fit quality I know of put 40 shots fired 20 seconds apart under 2 inches at 600 yards. That barrel got really, really hot after starting out at ambient temperature.

I have also found that projectiles can be expected to have minute variations with in a batch, which means you have to spec each one out and group them so you can get as much consistancy as possible.

A waste of time, in my opinion, if you use good bullets such as the Sierra or Berger match ones. There's hunting bullets that qualify for "no spec needed" too.

 

[Greyfox]

I was hoping to get more life out of my brass. Only in a benchrest chamber I suppose. On another note, out of my last 35 groups, only unfired brass has shot in the .20's. Second firings has produced a few .30's.

I have had this issue. Assuming that measurements show that the neck to case runout with a fired case is .003" or less, the problem can be caused by too much headspace. I like a fired case to be no more then .004" of the sized case/cartridge spec measured on the shoulder. I then can typically get good case life with 10+ reloads or until the primer pockets get too loose, whether the barrel is custom or factory.

 

[ajhardle]

My runout has been less than .003. No reason not to check again. Almost nothing on neck turned brass, but neck turned brass didn't shoot better than 1/2 moa with any consistency. My shooting became much more precise over night by changing a few things. I woke up early and started shooting as the sun was coming up. When developing loads, I don't touch the rear bag, just the front mechanical rest to make adjustments. And finally I started with a new batch of untouched brass, except a vld ream so copper jackets don't get scraped off. Happens a lot with my berger 70 gr vld's.

 

[TracySes23]

I have exactly 1 rifle that will do that, it's a Rem 788 in 243, It's done it with 3 different loads. But it won't group good with just anything, some stuff that should be accurate it will pattern not group. When it likes something though.............. My dads savage 110 06 will shoot 1/2moa day in day out with it's current load. Like greyfox I'm the weak link in the whole equation, I figure on any given day I'm about 1/2moa, on a very rare good day I can get down to 1/4moa but it doesn't last and like I said rarely happens. My other rifles that have been gone through and have match barrels, I can't fully take advantage of them.

You don't hear much about 788's anymore, but I have one in 22-250 that has always shot extremely well with hand loads & like you I had 2-3 that shot consistently .5MOA or less groups. One of them would do 5/16MOA if I did my part, I usually put blame on myself for most anything that gave me flyers. Keeping myself honest did more to improve my consistency than anything.
However I did go to extremes preparing my Herters brass. I always trimmed new brass to length and reamed all flash holes to the same size, which was 2mm. Oversize flash holes I pitched, but they were few. After that I weighed & sorted all brass into groups that were within .1 grain of each other. Maybe some of this was overkill, but I wanted to insure consistency of internal case volume & this was the only thing I could afford to do at the time. This practice hasn't let me down yet. I've heard others say to fill the case with water & weigh that instead. Somehow logic told me that was more of a pain than I was willing to forgo. My 788 had a factory birch stock that I glass bedded the action & approx. 1" of the barrel beyond the receiver. Every single charge was weighed & trickled to within .05 grain. I'm sure it was over kill, but I do it anyway. Sierra 55 grain & Speer 55 grain spitzers seemed to shoot best for me.
For some reason the 22-250 had a heavier barrel (.645 inches at the muzzle) than the .222 & a .243 that friends of my had. Theirs was 1/2 at the muzzle. I personally never met anyone that didn't have a 788 that didn't shoot extremely well with good hand loads.
That being said, I just can't imagine a model 12 Savage that wouldn't outshoot the average 788 Remington. I've read more than a hundred posts about Savage rifles that 99% seem to have the same or higher regard for the Savage from the Model 10 to present day Models 12's.

I think that gentleman needs to find someone that is a known expert marksman in the area and ask him to shoot his rifle, to see if he can shoot it better.

BTW, I always did one other thing whenever I was shooting targets from a bench. I always waited a minute between shots in an effort to insure a barrel that remained reasonably cool. If your rifle is up to par, then everything else falls on your own shoulders.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I just got my savage 12fv back after being pillar bedded, trued and recrowned. I was so excited to go shoot tiny groups, but it doesn't shoot consistently under 1/2 moa with anything. I bought a concentricity guage and reduced run-out to less than .002 (less than .001 in quite a few), but they shoot no better than my old loads (with over .005 more than a few cases). My reasoning is that because I feed it quality loads the loads, the worst groups are usually less than 1, and 1/2 is so easy to find, my rifle might be holding back. I here about people expecting 1/4 moa out of these. Can you offer any insight?

first of all if that Savage was built in the last five or six years it didn't need to be trued up, as it was almost as good as most custom actions out of the box. You didn't say wether or not there was any barrel work done other than a recrown, so I'll assume your using the factory chamber. What does a fired case look like on your gauge? If your seeing runout that might be part of the problem (I wouldn't get to worried about .002" TIR)

But lets leave the barreled action alone for the moment. Round up a good torque wrench that will max out at about 75 in. lb. and has a dial read out. Loosen the bolts and retorque them in 15 in. lb. increments till you reach 45 in.lb. I'd start with the front screw and then the rear screw going 15 in.lb. at a time. Shoot any better? If not, take a match book cover and see if there is any barrel clearence. Ideally we'd like to see about .06" to .08" clearence all the way around. All that look OK? Now round up some modeling clay, and roll out some very small strings that are about a sixtenth of an inch in diameter and about 3/8th's inch long. Put the clay ontop of the pillars and reinstall the action (pay very close attention to the front one). Retorque the screws and then carefully remove the action from the stock. You should see very little if any of the clay ontop the pillars. The front pillar is prone to not being seated right when rebedding. All that look good? Now remove the action again and put some very fine strips of modeling on the recoil lug. Reinstall the action and then remove it to check for recoil lug bedding issues. When shooting are you putting the front of the stock on a rest? If so see if the forend of the stock will flex. If so them I'd recommend you buy a couple metal or carbon fiber arrows, and bed them in the forend to stiffen it up. Lastly after you reinstall the action and retorquing the screws, take a feeler gauge and check the rear of the action for clearence. Savages like a little clearence back there for some odd reason.
gary