calling all experienced hand loaders!

[J E Custom]

J E Custom, the point I made was no benchrest record holders put all their fired groups inside 1/4 inch/MOA at 100 yards. All fired groups, not just the tiniest ones that so many people rave about. Those include the larger ones they shoot that doesn't even put them in the top ten in any match. I well understand why most folks don't want to talk about the largest groups fired by them or anybody else. They really do exist and statistically happen as often as the smallest ones.

Mike Stinnett's record was more luck than anything else. He holds no other records. We don't know what his biggest groups' sizes are he fired in matches.

I hear what you are saying Bart but I think that any bench rest shooter that has a rifle that wont consistently shoot within 1/10th of an inch at 100 yards is kidding him self and will never be competitive. The bench rest shooters that I know will scrap a barrel if it wont shoot below .100
before they start working to improve it until it is competitive in there class.

Of course no one brags about the "Worst" group they have ever shot mainly because it was only important to improve on it. I for one never continue testing a load that has a poor SD or a poor group, so I never find out how bad a group it would be, (It is a waste of time, components and a good barrel.

Once I learned what Is necessary to build a accurate rifle I know that the rest is up to loading great ammo for it and solving all of the other elements that effect accuracy. The reason I have some great shooting rifles is that I never quit trying to find out what the potential of a rifle is, and if it wont shoot below 1/2 MOA I haven't done my part in one area or another.

If I have a rifle that shoots less that 1/10th of an inch I am still not happy until I have exhausted every possibility that I know of to reduce the group size and then and only then will I except the fact that it is the best that it will do. then I am happy (Why shouldn't I) If I build a rifle that I cant shoot under 1/2 moa I ether re barrel it or sell it to someone that is happy with less than 1" groups.

As far as Mike Stinnett's .007 record being luck, does it really matter ? It does tell me that his rifle was capable and he just had a good day. He couldn't have done it with a 1/4 MOA rifle.

I have won many rifle matches because I was having a better day than the other competitors.
was I the best shooter there? absolutely not. I did have a good rifle and good ammo that I trusted,
but I was lucky no doubt about it.

Thanks for posting a good impersonal post with your opinion. Maybe now we can get back to helping the original poster.

Thanks
J E CUSTOM

 

[Bart B]

JE, I've figured out our disparities.

I judge a rifle/ammo accuracy by the largest groups they shoot. All the groups will be some size between that and zero. If I shots enough few-shot groups, one of them will be 1/10th MOA or smaller. The odds of one equaling or being more than the size of the largest one are slim.

I think you judge a rifle/ammo accuracy by the smallest groups they shoot. They're all between zero and some larger value. The odds of another group equaling or bettering that smallest ones are equally slim.

In reality, any rifle and its ammo is capable of shooting a few-shot group 1/10th inch/MOA. Once in a while. The smaller the largest groups are, the better the odds are of shooting one 1/10th or better. Sometimes you've got to shoot a lot of groups to see one; sometimes only a few.

We're rolling several pairs of dice every time we shoot a group. Each time a pair rolls a 7 is when the variables that pair represent are zero and the group it represents the variable for that pair. Box cars is when the variables add up in one direction, snake eyes when they're in the other direction. All between two random opposite points around a circle whose center is 7 on each pair of dice.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Canadian Bushman, do you know what the rifles holding 100-yard benchrest records put all of those groups inside of; MOA wise? Do any of them put all shots inside 1/4 MOA?

Better yet, what's the size of bullet maker's largest test groups checking their stuff for accuracy at 100 or 200 yards?

No i do not. I do know that there is a whole world of men with rifles that shoot a lot and dont compete, and that i have a lot of better things to do with my money beside challange wise old men.

 

[Bart B]

i have a lot of better things to do with my money beside challange wise old men.

You just did that to me.

Want a refund?

 

[Canadian Bushman]

You just did that to me.

Want a refund?

Dont reckon i did, certainly didnt intend to.

 

[MudRunner2005]

J E Custom, the point I made was no benchrest record holders put all their fired groups inside 1/4 inch/MOA at 100 yards. All fired groups, not just the tiniest ones that so many people rave about. Those include the larger ones they shoot that doesn't even put them in the top ten in any match. I well understand why most folks don't want to talk about the largest groups fired by them or anybody else. They really do exist and statistically happen as often as the smallest ones.

I don't believe anyone can shoot 1/4 MOA/inch at 100 yards consistently; especially with a hunting rifle hand held even with the rifle rested.

Mike Stinnett's record was more luck than anything else. He holds no other records. We don't know what his biggest groups' sizes are he fired in matches.

Bart, here is my opinion, that also follows along with what JE said...

Not everyone is a BR comp shooter. And not everybody cares about record-setting groups, or how many groups that person has shot before that were larger than their record...Because obviously EVERY group that person had shot in a match prior to their record, was larger than their record, or else their record group would not be the new record...

Also, do you think it could be possible that some people are "bragging" on their groups because they are simply proud of their guns performing well, and their own personal accomplishments with shooting skills and handloading, without wanting to be chastised about it?

I hear what you are saying Bart but I think that any bench rest shooter that has a rifle that wont consistently shoot within 1/10th of an inch at 100 yards is kidding him self and will never be competitive. The bench rest shooters that I know will scrap a barrel if it wont shoot below .100
before they start working to improve it until it is competitive in there class.

Of course no one brags about the "Worst" group they have ever shot mainly because it was only important to improve on it. I for one never continue testing a load that has a poor SD or a poor group, so I never find out how bad a group it would be, (It is a waste of time, components and a good barrel.

Once I learned what Is necessary to build a accurate rifle I know that the rest is up to loading great ammo for it and solving all of the other elements that effect accuracy. The reason I have some great shooting rifles is that I never quit trying to find out what the potential of a rifle is, and if it wont shoot below 1/2 MOA I haven't done my part in one area or another.

If I have a rifle that shoots less that 1/10th of an inch I am still not happy until I have exhausted every possibility that I know of to reduce the group size and then and only then will I except the fact that it is the best that it will do. then I am happy (Why shouldn't I) If I build a rifle that I cant shoot under 1/2 moa I ether re barrel it or sell it to someone that is happy with less than 1" groups.

As far as Mike Stinnett's .007 record being luck, does it really matter ? It does tell me that his rifle was capable and he just had a good day. He couldn't have done it with a 1/4 MOA rifle.

I have won many rifle matches because I was having a better day than the other competitors.
was I the best shooter there? absolutely not. I did have a good rifle and good ammo that I trusted,
but I was lucky no doubt about it.

Thanks for posting a good impersonal post with your opinion. Maybe now we can get back to helping the original poster.

Thanks
J E CUSTOM

JE, once again, we find ourselves in 100% agreement.

 

[TOM H]

J E Custom, the point I made was no benchrest record holders put all their fired groups inside 1/4 inch/MOA at 100 yards. All fired groups, not just the tiniest ones that so many people rave about. Those include the larger ones they shoot that doesn't even put them in the top ten in any match. I well understand why most folks don't want to talk about the largest groups fired by them or anybody else. They really do exist and statistically happen as often as the smallest ones.

I don't believe anyone can shoot 1/4 MOA/inch at 100 yards consistently; especially with a hunting rifle hand held even with the rifle rested.

Mike Stinnett's record was more luck than anything else. He holds no other records. We don't know what his biggest groups' sizes are he fired in matches.

Bart, how to you know a BR shooter doesn't shoot his groups under 1/4 @ 100yds and would you be willing to bet money on that?

Can you do it and bet money on it?

 

[J E Custom]

JE, I've figured out our disparities.

I judge a rifle/ammo accuracy by the largest groups they shoot. All the groups will be some size between that and zero. If I shots enough few-shot groups, one of them will be 1/10th MOA or smaller. The odds of one equaling or being more than the size of the largest one are slim.

I think you judge a rifle/ammo accuracy by the smallest groups they shoot. They're all between zero and some larger value. The odds of another group equaling or bettering that smallest ones are equally slim.



You are right about my way of judging the accuracy being different. I judge the smallest group as
the best the rifle will perform, and I blame the worst groups on my self. But if the rifle will not consistently shoot near, but not as close to the same the best groups buy a small margin then it is not reliable and I work to find out why performance fell off.

When I go to the field I know the rifle will perform to its standard or I don't take it. One of my favorite rifles that will consistently shoot 1/10 MOA (The best it had ever done was .054 and the
accuracy fell off to .071 and after trying to figure out why found that I had changed primer lot #
and went back to the older primer and the average group size went back to .053 and I was very happy that I improved by .001 (If that is not Anal I'm not sure what you would call it).

Just because the rifle shoots 1 tight group doesn't mean it is an accurate rifle to me, It has to be consistently close to the best group so I have confidence and have to do my part.

I think we are on the same page we just have different standards as to what we will except.

I sometimes hunt with my fire form loads if they meet my standards. The latest session was with my 338 Texan and It consistently shot .124 (Best) to .138(Worst) while fire forming the brass and increasing powder volume by almost 15 grains. this was the experience that I posted about earlier
in this post and felt that it might help the poster. With .138 being the worst, I feel confident I can hunt and fire form at the same time with this load and rifle combination.

Thanks again for the question. I hope I have cleared up the difference in our way of judging group size. Obviously I am not one of those guys that a paper plate sized group is ok.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Bart B]

Thanks, JE, I acknowledge your methods and objectives. They're fine by me. Best wishes and keep on truckin' down the road you're shooting on. I know you'll enjoy the trip.

Tom H, you asked how do I know a BR shooter doesn't shoot his groups under 1/4 @ 100yds and would you be willing to bet money on that. If you interpret anything I put in print that way, so be it; I apologize for putting words in print you don't understand. Go back and read my posts in this thread and you may see I never made any such statement that any BR shooter never shoots groups under 1/4 at 100 yards. Sometimes, all their groups in an agg. will be under 1/4. Other times, some are larger and occasionally near 1/2. Yes, I've shot a few groups under 1/4 at 100yards, 1000, too. And I don't bet on anything that's not a sure thing to happen.

 

[TOM H]

Thanks, JE, I acknowledge your methods and objectives. They're fine by me. Best wishes and keep on truckin' down the road you're shooting on. I know you'll enjoy the trip.

Tom H, you asked how do I know a BR shooter doesn't shoot his groups under 1/4 @ 100yds and would you be willing to bet money on that. If you interpret anything I put in print that way, so be it; I apologize for putting words in print you don't understand. Go back and read my posts in this thread and you may see I never made any such statement that any BR shooter never shoots groups under 1/4 at 100 yards. Sometimes, all their groups in an agg. will be under 1/4. Other times, some are larger and occasionally near 1/2. Yes, I've shot a few groups under 1/4 at 100yards, 1000, too. And I don't bet on anything that's not a sure thing to happen.

I always wonder why your so concerned about how others shoot? I guess when you as Palma team member shoot next to lowest score at the big match for the US and that's your record in the books.

No need to apologize that I don't understand what your printed words.

 

[Bart B]

Someone has to shoot the lowest scores on their team in a match. Most of the USA team members shot lower scores than normal. Do you remember why?

Why don't you list the matches where I've shot the top score over all? Like the one wherein top ranked people shot Sierra's then new Palma bullet the first time over 4 days shooting.