alaska
Well-Known Member
As the barrel heats up changes point of impact
Slow down your firing secession
Slow down your firing secession
calling all experienced hand loaders!
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el matador
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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I was getting the same thing with my 270 WSM after I had a Pac-Nor barrel installed. I tried a couple of different bullets and seating depths with MagPro and got mostly "2 and 1" groups. The flier was not always the 3rd shot either, so I could eliminate barrel heating as a possible cause. My next round of load development was with Retumbo and the same 150 Ballistic Tips I had tried with MagPro. 2 of my 5 loads were under 1/2 moa and the others were all under 1 moa. Since developing this load I rarely get a flier that's not called.
It could be a number of things, but certainly one possibility is that you're close to a good load but just one degree off. Try a different powder, bullet, primer, or seating depth. I'm working with a different rifle now that is doing the same thing. I've only shot 4 groups through it and 3 of them were the "2 and 1" variety. The rifle is a known shooter and I have confidence in the bullet/powder selection so I'm going to mess with seating depth.
It could be a number of things, but certainly one possibility is that you're close to a good load but just one degree off. Try a different powder, bullet, primer, or seating depth. I'm working with a different rifle now that is doing the same thing. I've only shot 4 groups through it and 3 of them were the "2 and 1" variety. The rifle is a known shooter and I have confidence in the bullet/powder selection so I'm going to mess with seating depth.
Blacktail63
Well-Known Member
My experience with Accubonds is that they like a little more run at the lands. I start at .050 off and look for the most accurate charge weight. Then adjust OAL by .010 to find the best performance. Once you find a load that's close start bracketing the load .002" at a time. Seating depth adjustment will corral the fliers. Keep your barrel cool. If that doesn't bring the groups to where you want try a different powder. Out of the 150 odd rifles I've loaded for I've only had 3 not respond with excellent groups using this method. A good trigger is the single best tool to use for improving your groups.
+1 on barrel heat. My 7mm RM with a factory barrel will spread if I don't let the barrel cool at least 4 minutes between each shot. Yes, even between 1 and 2 there is some POI change (which I've mapped) if I shoot rapidly. Not a lot but between 2 and 3 there can be an inch or more. I tested this with a infrared thermometer and measured barrel temps at different shooting intervals to determine the best interval.
Another think I found is when I stack the first two and the third always goes way off, it's a psychological shooting mistake. You print two in one hole and think, "Hot dog, I'm going to print a 3 shot clover leaf" and then shank the third. Once I get over that though, I shoot much better. That is why I shoot 4 or 5 shot groups as usually the third one is not great but #4 and 5 are right in there with 1 and 2.
Another think I found is when I stack the first two and the third always goes way off, it's a psychological shooting mistake. You print two in one hole and think, "Hot dog, I'm going to print a 3 shot clover leaf" and then shank the third. Once I get over that though, I shoot much better. That is why I shoot 4 or 5 shot groups as usually the third one is not great but #4 and 5 are right in there with 1 and 2.
Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
+1.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
When I shot competitively, 5 to 10 shot groups were necessary to tell you what the rifle would do under match conditions.
For hunting I went to 5 shots maximum groups. I soon realized that I would never shoot 5 times in a row unless I was trying to down a squadron of planes. so I went to 3 shot groups because they were more practical under hunting conditions.
I mainly wanted to know where my first cold bore shot would be and if I needed a follow up shot, what would happen. Of Course the groups would be smaller but it was more practical for hunting.
Also I found that after shooting 2 or 3 rounds with 100+ grains of powder the barrel would heat up
enough to effect the accuracy/POI.
There was also another effect that came into play. carbon fouling. Just recently I was fire forming
the brass for my 338 Texan and the same thing that happened to you happened to me.
I had just finished breaking the barrel in, and although I was not trying to go for tight groups
the rifle was shooting very good during the shoot and clean stage. It allowed the barrel to remain cool and every shot was with a clean barrel.
Next I went to 3 shots and clean. It would place 2 shots almost in the same hole but the third shot would always be high and a little left. puzzled with the consistency of this grouping (They were almost exactly the same every time) I decided to try and find out why.
So I cleaned the barrel, shot one round and then pushed a dry patch through the bore, shot another round and it went almost in the same hole, then after dry patching the second shot, I shot the third shot and it did the same. the 3 shot group measured .124 (.462 - .338 = .124) I only had one more fire form load and had a choice to make.
I decided to not clean the bore and fire the 4th/last shot. The impact was exactly the same as the previous three shot groups with no cleaning, on the third shot (High and slightly left).
Some powders foul worse than others and may powder foul faster or slower. and could be the cause of your problem along with barrel heat.
There are many other things that could cause a flier, but this is just some other possibilities.
I check SDs before I start working up accuracy loads so I don't waste time and components to make sure I have a good powder primer combination and if the SDs are single digits I am satisfied that I should not have any flyers unless something else is wrong.
I know that a cleaning rod is not practical hunting so I use a bore snake to sweep the powder fouling from the barrel when I can and this seems to help.
J E CUSTOM
For hunting I went to 5 shots maximum groups. I soon realized that I would never shoot 5 times in a row unless I was trying to down a squadron of planes. so I went to 3 shot groups because they were more practical under hunting conditions.
I mainly wanted to know where my first cold bore shot would be and if I needed a follow up shot, what would happen. Of Course the groups would be smaller but it was more practical for hunting.
Also I found that after shooting 2 or 3 rounds with 100+ grains of powder the barrel would heat up
enough to effect the accuracy/POI.
There was also another effect that came into play. carbon fouling. Just recently I was fire forming
the brass for my 338 Texan and the same thing that happened to you happened to me.
I had just finished breaking the barrel in, and although I was not trying to go for tight groups
the rifle was shooting very good during the shoot and clean stage. It allowed the barrel to remain cool and every shot was with a clean barrel.
Next I went to 3 shots and clean. It would place 2 shots almost in the same hole but the third shot would always be high and a little left. puzzled with the consistency of this grouping (They were almost exactly the same every time) I decided to try and find out why.
So I cleaned the barrel, shot one round and then pushed a dry patch through the bore, shot another round and it went almost in the same hole, then after dry patching the second shot, I shot the third shot and it did the same. the 3 shot group measured .124 (.462 - .338 = .124) I only had one more fire form load and had a choice to make.
I decided to not clean the bore and fire the 4th/last shot. The impact was exactly the same as the previous three shot groups with no cleaning, on the third shot (High and slightly left).
Some powders foul worse than others and may powder foul faster or slower. and could be the cause of your problem along with barrel heat.
There are many other things that could cause a flier, but this is just some other possibilities.
I check SDs before I start working up accuracy loads so I don't waste time and components to make sure I have a good powder primer combination and if the SDs are single digits I am satisfied that I should not have any flyers unless something else is wrong.
I know that a cleaning rod is not practical hunting so I use a bore snake to sweep the powder fouling from the barrel when I can and this seems to help.
J E CUSTOM
geo4061
Well-Known Member
Great tip J E. I have got to try that.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Even the worst fouling gun I've ever seen or heard of would not foul out in 3-4 shots.
The cleaning notion is likely cleaning product residue burning off, and/or the bore is not actually clean.
You can get around this with an alcohol wash after full blown cleaning(to white metal), followed by dry prefouling.
Wondering from barrel stress & temperature gradient should not be brought into play either.
For hunting you don't need grouping, you need accuracy. Cold bore accuracy, with potential for a quick follow-up. That follow-up could be called a group I suppose, and if you also miss with that follow-up in the field you need to stop and figure out why you can't hit anything today. Any connection with hunting is over by then anyway.
So, how do you load develop for hunting shots?
Cold bore load development, which takes a lot of time and discipline.
Believe me, you're not doing it.
The cleaning notion is likely cleaning product residue burning off, and/or the bore is not actually clean.
You can get around this with an alcohol wash after full blown cleaning(to white metal), followed by dry prefouling.
Wondering from barrel stress & temperature gradient should not be brought into play either.
For hunting you don't need grouping, you need accuracy. Cold bore accuracy, with potential for a quick follow-up. That follow-up could be called a group I suppose, and if you also miss with that follow-up in the field you need to stop and figure out why you can't hit anything today. Any connection with hunting is over by then anyway.
So, how do you load develop for hunting shots?
Cold bore load development, which takes a lot of time and discipline.
Believe me, you're not doing it.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I am assuming you are referring to my post about the carbon fouling If not disregard this reply.
Carbon fouling and copper fouling are two different things all together and how we deal with both are totally different.
A barrel that copper fouls after only one or two shots is a pipe not a barrel. But all barrels have carbon fouling after the first shot. The extent of how bad the powder fouling is depends on how clean the powder burns and how much is consumed by each cartridge.
Fire one shot and push a clean, dry patch through the bore and you will see powder fouling Every time. if this is aloud to build up it becomes very hard to remove and can effect the life of the barrel by being forced down the barrel each time it is fired buy the bullet.
In your reference about hunting not needing some kind of accuracy grouping. If a person has any
desire for humane kills, he must know what his rifle and ammunition will do from the first shot to the last he fires and the only way to measure this is with the consistency/grouping of his rifle and load combination. Also anyone can get one hole group every time with the first shot, but the second or third shot is a different thing, so load development is very important to find if your rifle is accurate and consistent for the first shot and how many shots after that before accuracy falls off.
I have probably been hunting longer than you have been alive and in over 50+ years of hunting I have only fired twice on one animal (Only one shot required on all others and I am very proud of that) but that doesn't mean I don't need or want to be ready in the event that a second shot is necessary.
In the last post, my intent was to offer an explanation to the poster for the possible reason that he was having a third shot flier. not to start a debate. and believe me I do load development on every rifle I have, and accuracy is the goal. If you have to ask how I can do load development and cold bore development, I don't need to answer that because all of my hunting rifles will shoot below 1/4 MOA consistently and 4 of them will shoot under 1/10th MOA. "So believe me I am doing it" quoting you.
Sorry you don't agree with me, but that's what makes the world go around and I don't have to prove anything to anyone about my abilities. I am however surprised that you jumped on me for trying to help a fellow shooter when you know nothing about my methods and abilities.
J E CUSTOM
With the rifle hand held against your shoulder?
How many shots per group?
All below 1/4 MOA consistently?
4 rifles shoot under 1/10th MOA consistently?
All at 100 yards?
Once a guy made such 1/4 MOA claims on his hunting rifles and he was offered $20 for each 5-shot, 1/4 MOA or smaller group at a hundred yards he could shoot his hunting rifles at. And for every group bigger than 1/4 MOA he shot, he would pay us $50. He walked away.
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Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
I wouldnt offer je that opportunity.
Canadian Bushman, do you know what the rifles holding 100-yard benchrest records put all of those groups inside of; MOA wise? Do any of them put all shots inside 1/4 MOA?
Better yet, what's the size of bullet maker's largest test groups checking their stuff for accuracy at 100 or 200 yards?
Better yet, what's the size of bullet maker's largest test groups checking their stuff for accuracy at 100 or 200 yards?
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Here is the 100 yard benchrest record for those that don't know.
Mike Stinnett Breaks 'Unbreakable Record' with .0077″ Group « Daily Bulletin
.0077 is a lot tighter than the best I have ever shot .034 and as I stated in my post earlier I don't match shoot anymore and use only 3 shot groups for hunting.
I have to apologize to the original poster for this latest turn of events on his post and will no longer
engage in this type of posting because it serves no purpose.
J E CUSTOM
J E Custom, the point I made was no benchrest record holders put all their fired groups inside 1/4 inch/MOA at 100 yards. All fired groups, not just the tiniest ones that so many people rave about. Those include the larger ones they shoot that doesn't even put them in the top ten in any match. I well understand why most folks don't want to talk about the largest groups fired by them or anybody else. They really do exist and statistically happen as often as the smallest ones.
I don't believe anyone can shoot 1/4 MOA/inch at 100 yards consistently; especially with a hunting rifle hand held even with the rifle rested.
Mike Stinnett's record was more luck than anything else. He holds no other records. We don't know what his biggest groups' sizes are he fired in matches.
I don't believe anyone can shoot 1/4 MOA/inch at 100 yards consistently; especially with a hunting rifle hand held even with the rifle rested.
Mike Stinnett's record was more luck than anything else. He holds no other records. We don't know what his biggest groups' sizes are he fired in matches.
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