Bullet penciling question?

I've only been using VLDs for 6 or 7 years but everything I've shot with them from hogs to whitetail to elk have died on the spot with the exception of one hog that went 10-15 yards. Never a penciling issue...I always make sure the tips are clean/open!
 
I have done a lot of bullet testing, mostly for terminal performance, because our it's most important to us. In my opinion bullet failure can be traced to stability in an awful lot of the cases. The smaller the hollow points get the more particular stability Terminal performance gets. If a bullet impacts with yaw it effectively makes the hollow point smaller due to the angle, thus making it harder to get fluid into the hole. Fluid into the hp is required in order to have a bullet open from the inside out. I do not think it is possible for a bullet that opens at low vel to fail to open at high vel. The higher the impact vel the more rapidly and violently a bullet opens/deforms. I think it could be possible for a bullet impact at close range to fail because the bullet has not gone to "sleep" yet and is in a state of yaw that has not straightened out yet thus leading to no fluid into the hp. Failure. Not the bullets fault, too long of a bullet for the twist and range.

The old wives tale that you must use the heaviest bullet possible in order to have good Terminal performance does not hold true today. Not to many years ago bullets in general could not survive launches much over 3000 fps let alone survive impacts that high without disintegrating and having under penetration due to lack of retained weight. This is a legit worry with some bullets.
 
Hunting bullets can be very accurate. Find one that works for you. Target bullets are not designed for controlled expansion. Although a target bullet through the ear hole will do the job.
 
arch408,

I'm not so sure that I believe in a manufacturers description or classification is the best way for me to choose a bullet for my intended use.

I personally do not shoot extremely high velocity cartridges. Which leads me to believe I am in need of a softer bullet that expands rapidly.

I am thinking I need a ELD-m or Berger to achieve the results I'm looking for.

Thanks
Steve
 
arch408,

I'm not so sure that I believe in a manufacturers description or classification is the best way for me to choose a bullet for my intended use.

I personally do not shoot extremely high velocity cartridges. Which leads me to believe I am in need of a softer bullet that expands rapidly.

I am thinking I need a ELD-m or Berger to achieve the results I'm looking for.

Thanks
Steve

Steve, you are correct. When shooting a 308 or 7mm-08 and using between 140gr and 168gr bullets that are pushed between 2,600 and 2,800 fps, a softer bullet is better, why?
1. Because they won't blow up at those speeds because they are designed for those speeds.
2. They are designed to expand and mushroom to continue penetrating.

Hornady SST, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Sierra Game Kings (lead tips), Hornady Interlocks and others work great at lower velocities.

Bonded, Partitioned and Monolithic bullets work better at higher magnum velocities, some but not all monolithics will not expand well at a low velocities, they must be pushed hard.

Match or Target bullets are designed for that, now do some accidentally also end up working well on hunting situations? Yes. Are they ideal for this? Provably not.

The reason hunting bullets fail is usually because they arent used correctly, soft bullets at high speeds or hard bullets at low speeds or bullet not appropriate for a specific type of game, etc.

Now, bullets of all brands will fail at one time or another. I once put 3 130gr Nosler Partitions from a 270 Win on a coues deer's boiler room at 375 yds, 3 bullets it took for him to go down, all 3 shots within 3 inches from each other and he still ran close to 150 yards. I found small holes on the lungs and heart because they did not expand and just penciled through. I used the rest of that box for practice. I've used partitions many many many timea in the past and never had an issue except for the case mentioned above.

Now I've seen a Ballistic Tip from a 308 Norma Mag get stuck on the neck of a mulie at 100 yds, and this bullet was screaming fast. I've seen a Speer SPBT from 30-06 hit the shoulder of a coues deer and get atuck right after entering the shoulder, No Blowup and No Penetration either.

But most issues I've seen are not bullet problems but shot placement.

Just my experience
 
LVJ76

I lost a big buck shot with Partition fired from a Remington Sendero 25-06 at about 75 yards. At the shot, he dropped and slid 5 feet down the hill. As I was gathering my things he got up and ran over the hill. I tracked him about a 1/4 mile through the woods. Best I can guess is my shot placement was poor and the bullet stopped on his humerus bone and never got to the vitals, but the impact with the large bone dumped him temporally.

Unfortunately, things happen.

Steve
 
48 years of big game hunting has taught me some things, first, through the years my thoughts have changed on what works and what doesn't. Second, every animal that I have ever lost still bothers me to this day. You won't find me on the small caliber band wagon, sorry, I like big holes with big bullets, they work. I hunt in grizzly country, if I have to defend myself, I want to know that one shot should save my life. I like DRT kills, the animal can't be too dead. It is humane too.
I have tried most bullet designs and have likes and dislikes. I do need to try some hammer bullets, next on my list. I started my hunting life reloading after being taught by my dad and my uncles. I grew up hearing stories about 30-06 bullets failing to penetrate elk shoulder bones, then the Nosler partition was born, a game changer. The biggest mule deer my dad ever shot was hit behind the shoulder with a 180 grain soft point out of a 30-06, the deer kicked and kept on going. They found the deer the next day, dead. When my dad and uncle returned from this trip to Idaho in 1958, my uncle called my dad and told him Winchester just came out with a new cartridge, 338 Win Mag. My dad rushed out and bought one and never looked back! My uncle then had his Winchester model 70 rechambered to the wildcat 30-338. Years went by and I watched these two great men kill lots of animals with authority. Yes, my dad killed a lot of black tail deer with a 338 win mag, sometimes he would gut shoot them on purpose and the shock would drop them. Then came the 7mm mag craze and we all had them, and after I lost a big black bear that I shot at around 500 yards with a 160 gr partition with a solid behind the shoulder shot and then another big bear that while I killed him, the 160 gr partition never touched a rib on the off side after a 150 yard finishing shot, I decided bigger was better.
Now I primarily hunt with a 338 rum, I liked my 300 rum too, but I referred to it as my small gun. When the barrel went south, I opted to build a second 338 rum.
Back to bullets, about 5 years ago I tried my first 300 grain Berger OTM, first kill was on a 5 point bull elk at 540 yards, I have never seen a faster DRT as I saw the legs go straight into the air at the shot. Bullet didn't exit, but did it's job. Many great kills followed this one with the 300 gr OTM, no failures. I also shot the 225 Accubonds for quite a few years with good results, mostly DRT's as I push the Accubonds hard at 3250. I also shot the Barnes 210 gr XLC coated bullet and it did very well, but it was pushed very hard also at close to 3400. Two years ago I decided to try the 300 gr Accubond and it shot very well, same velocity and almost as good of accuracy as the 300 gr Berger. With griz still being on my mind, I did a testing in my shop into a 24 inch pine log, end ways 3 feet from the barrel, I shot the log with two shot of 300 gr bergers and two accubonds, both with a muzzle velocity of 2830. The Bergers penetrated about 12 inches and the bullet is a mess of copper lead and wood. The accubond almost exited the log with a perfect intact mushroom, luckily it didn't kill my new tool box! Then I hunted with the accubond that year. I had a miss at 960 yards on a cow elk do to a mental oops, had the Berger bc in my G7 and at that range the difference in bc was enough for a miss low. Then I connected on a cow with a bad wind call at 540 yards, I hit her far back and it looked like I broke her back. She crawled into the timber on a snow covered ridge. Thinking she was done, I didn't bring my rifle, just my 454 raging bull. As I got to where she went into the timber, I could see what looked like an elk laying there, but my glasses had gotten so dark from the snow, that I couldn't see well, but I saw her lift her head, and then scramble and got her feet under her and I had no shot. I tracked her through two drainages in the snow, she was leaking drops of blood making it easy tracking. I finally caught up to her and my buddy had brought me my rifle after her missed her on an open hillside in the sage brush. As she was running from me at about 50 yards, I hit her from behind and the bullet penetrated all of one backstrap, exited and hit her in the side of the head and stopped. She went another 15 yards and stopped in the timber where I walked up and put one behind the shoulder that was a complete pass through and dropped her. Tough Cow! The first shot hit the rear part of the stomach just under the spine, paralyzing her hind end for a while, but it took me 30 minutes to hike up to her. Second shot didn't hit any bone and really didn't blood shot a lot of meat. The back straps had a perfect hole of about 40 cal all the way through lengthwise. So, what does this mean, I think a fragmenting bullet would have broken the spine and kept her down on the first shot. The bullet instead stayed together, but still didn't exit.
I am now testing another bullet, the 285 gr Hornady ELDM, I am running this bullet at 3000 fps with 100 grs of RL33 and so far only two doe antelope to show, both killed at 400+ and both drt. I recovered one of the bullets from a quartering shot after it broke the off side front leg into bitty pieces. It resembled a 300 gr Berger OTM, 1.25 diameter of destruction. Currently I am trying to make some 210 gr Swift Scirraccos shoot out of 338 #2 and RL26 showed promise in velocity, but not accuracy. I might try them with H-1000 or just stick with the accubond 225 for my light hunting loads. Or maybe I will order some Hammer's to try. I have also tried some Barnes tipped tripple shock 225's with this barrel, but I give up 100 fps, but they have good accuracy.
 
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Not to be disrespectful, but if you feel it takes a 338 Win or a RUM to kill a deer, especially with the purposeful gut shot comment, I don't think our hunting styles or ethics match up.

Thanks though!
Steve
 
175 grain Berger VLD hunting out of a 300 Win Mag. I mashed the hollow point closed with wire cutters. Target was at 15 yards. It was a water melon inside a corn sack( paper coated woven plastic flat fibers). Light weight fresh under the counter plastic pipe split. One piece inserted just inside the front and one half just inside the back of the melon. Total width was 10 inches. Crony was at 5 foot from the muzzle, read 3068 feet per second. I would have preferred a pumpkin but they are out of season! Did it pencil? No, just the opposite was true! A ripped, shattered pipe, bag of mashed melon! Penciling is an old wives tale!
 
175 grain Berger VLD hunting out of a 300 Win Mag. I mashed the hollow point closed with wire cutters. Target was at 15 yards. It was a water melon inside a corn sack( paper coated woven plastic flat fibers). Light weight fresh under the counter plastic pipe split. One piece inserted just inside the front and one half just inside the back of the melon. Total width was 10 inches. Crony was at 5 foot from the muzzle, read 3068 feet per second. I would have preferred a pumpkin but they are out of season! Did it pencil? No, just the opposite was true! A ripped, shattered pipe, bag of mashed melon! Penciling is an old wives tale!
I would be interested to see your results with a slower twist or a longer bullet, reducing your stability to marginal.
 
I've only had two bullets not perform ideally. First was a Barnes 200 TSX from a 300 Wby. I hit a big sow hog just under 300 yards and the bullet really appeared to "pencil." It went in between two ribs, totally fried both lungs, and exited between two ribs with about a 30 caliber hole. She ran just over 80 yards and piled up dead. So I believe....penciling, with proper bullet placement, still means dead. Second case, I tried a Berger 210 VLD from the same Wby on a big boar at just under 30 yards. Hit hin solid in the shoulder and the bullet exploded apart. The pig ran in tight little circles for about 20 seconds and stopped. Second bullet in the neck and DRT. Upon the autopsy, the first bullet left a softball sized hole in the plate and minimal damage to the muscle underneath. There was on small fragment of that bullet that went through the plate, shoulder muscle, left lung and was lodged in the plate on the far side. It would have been fatal, but I'm happy he chose to run in circles instead of straight away.

For the record, I hunt with Barnes exclusively, and limit my shots to 600.
 
Pick a bullet-any bullet, any manufacturer, and assuming they are "IDENTICAL" isn't something to be assumed. Within "TOLERANCES" is more likely true.

Variance's in barrel's exist, beyond just programmed "TOLERANCES". Drive a good bullet hard, through a tight, rough barrel, and you can make it fail to reach a target.

When Kevin Thomas worked for Sierra used to be here he said "The best a bullet will ever be is when it drops from the machine" (apologies if quote isn't 100%)".

I understand the passion in the disagreement, been there myself. I have seen bullets from the same box, fired into the same animal, at the same distance provide entirely different profiles on recovery, and had passion reduced to head scratching.

Articles exist on "age hardening" of materials, especially lead, add in the manufacturing processes in producing said material, and more variation is introduced. All along the line variable's are introduced.

I believe bigngreen, and Broz's, long positive experience with Bergers. I also believe folks closer to home that have had a non-typical experience.

In the end pick a bullet for what your needs honestly are, meaning if you don't own a basic range finder don't pick a bullet intending to use it a 1000 yards.

Most of this adds up to what can be called the house bet. Stack as many variables in your favor, but don't be completely shocked when they don't break your way.
 
I have killed elk with the 168 vld, 195 eol, 215 hybrids and 300 hybrids out to about 750yds. I have never had a failure myself. It bothers me to see animals suffer, I wouldnt use anything that I thought would lead to that. Shooting beyond your capabilities is the biggest reason for wounded game. Thats not a LR thing, I have seen elk shot in the as$ at 50 paces so its certainly individual. There are guys capable of cleanly killing at 1000 yards, but theres a lot more that are willing to try. With the lot to lot changes we see in target shooting with bullets, it would not surprise me one bit to see bullets behave differently on game from one lot to the next. I have a few solid reports on blow ups and pencil holes from people I know and trust that have recovered the game to inspect. Mostly the 195, some Bergers seem to have a better track record than others. Expecting solid performance at 100 yards and 1000 yards is just asking a little too much IMO.
 
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