Bullet penciling question?

[elkaholic]

I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record on this subject but I've never had a failure of any kind with the Nosler Partition bullets. The longest shot I've ever taken was with a .270 Win. on an antelope that someone else had wounded, at 750 yards (I would normally never take such a shot but this goat was missing his lower jaw). The 130 gr. bullet entered just behind the shoulder, hit a rib on the way in and the way out. Tiny hole going in, mushed both lungs and a ragged, quarter sized hole on the way out. The only performance complaint I've heard regarding Partitions is that they sometimes work too well. An aquaintence shot a little Coues buck (maybe 100 - 110 lbs) at about 35 yards in the shoulder with a 7mm Wby. Neat little hole going in but it completely removed the off shoulder & leg! He didn't have to chase it, tho! I've killed deer & antelope with my .308 using 165 Partitions from 50 to 250 yards and bullet performance was perfect every time, breaking shoulder bones or shattering skulls, depending on range. Partitions simply work.
Cheers,
crkckr

I agree with you on the partitions. The ONLY reason they arent good for really long range is b c
They always retain the back portion but will expand at very low veloctity.

 

[BJH]

This topic has been argued about over and over again about the Berger bullets. The question that I have is this...How can they pencil through, and at the same time blow up on the hide and not even penetrate???? I have heard the argument both ways so many times that I have lost count. And every time I have heard either statement it is always started with.."A buddy of mine lost a 380" bull with a perfect shot because of Berger bullets". I shot the Nosler Partition for years and think it is a fantastic bullet and would not hesitate using it on any animal I have ever encountered. But I switched to Berger and have personally never seen better performance on game. I have yet to have one under or over penetrate on an animal. I have shot myself, or been there in person to witness shots on, everything from prairie dogs and coyotes to bull buffalo with Berger bullets (both target and hunting VLD's), ranging from .22 to .30 cal, and have yet to see either problem. I shot a cow elk at a generous 30 yards (probably closer to 20) with a 7mm 180 grain Hybrid at 3,100 fps and she never took a step. With the same load I killed a bull buffalo at 650 yards and it took a few staggering steps and tipped over within 10 yards. I have no idea where this argument comes from to be honest.
I am not trying to offend anybody here i promise. I am only talking about my personal experiences with the bullets and do not know what happens when I am not there. I would like to know how both problems can occur with the same bullet though. Because to me it seems like two completely different ideas and theories and I can not make sense of it in my tiny brain.

 

[elkaholic]

This topic has been argued about over and over again about the Berger bullets. The question that I have is this...How can they pencil through, and at the same time blow up on the hide and not even penetrate???? I have heard the argument both ways so many times that I have lost count. And every time I have heard either statement it is always started with.."A buddy of mine lost a 380" bull with a perfect shot because of Berger bullets". I shot the Nosler Partition for years and think it is a fantastic bullet and would not hesitate using it on any animal I have ever encountered. But I switched to Berger and have personally never seen better performance on game. I have yet to have one under or over penetrate on an animal. I have shot myself, or been there in person to witness shots on, everything from prairie dogs and coyotes to bull buffalo with Berger bullets (both target and hunting VLD's), ranging from .22 to .30 cal, and have yet to see either problem. I shot a cow elk at a generous 30 yards (probably closer to 20) with a 7mm 180 grain Hybrid at 3,100 fps and she never took a step. With the same load I killed a bull buffalo at 650 yards and it took a few staggering steps and tipped over within 10 yards. I have no idea where this argument comes from to be honest.
I am not trying to offend anybody here i promise. I am only talking about my personal experiences with the bullets and do not know what happens when I am not there. I would like to know how both problems can occur with the same bullet though. Because to me it seems like two completely different ideas and theories and I can not make sense of it in my tiny brain.

It comes down to whether or not the tips are open or closed. If you ding the tip on the magazine and pinch it off, it can pencil like a fmj. Sometimes even if they havent been crimped, they could be closed when formed at the factory. Thats why many of us run a .040" drill bit in the nose.
As far as explosive up close, i have seen that happen if you get enough resistance at high velocity (like a heavy shoulder bone)
Ive even seen it with Nosler LRAB's with a 150 grain in my 270 ss

 

[Danny Butler]

I have been reading of people saying they have taken a shot at close range and claiming the bullet penciled through the animal. I even called Berger and talked to a tech about my typical close range shots and he said the bullets are moving too fast to get expansion time. I find this hard to believe especially at 308 Win and 7-08 velocities at 50-125 yards.

What are your thoughts on small entrances and exits? Is it lack of expansion or is it too much expansion and the small exit is just the jacket or fragmentation? Or is it something else?

Thanks
Steve

I've killed a lot of whitetail in my time. The

I have been reading of people saying they have taken a shot at close range and claiming the bullet penciled through the animal. I even called Berger and talked to a tech about my typical close range shots and he said the bullets are moving too fast to get expansion time. I find this hard to believe especially at 308 Win and 7-08 velocities at 50-125 yards.

What are your thoughts on small entrances and exits? Is it lack of expansion or is it too much expansion and the small exit is just the jacket or fragmentation? Or is it something else?

Thanks
Steve

ive shot a few whitetail in my day. In the .308 win I've never had a Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet fail . The 150 grain 200 yards and under and the 165 further.. Hope this helps..

 

[BJH]

I agree with you elk. I inspect the tips before I hunt with them. I believe it is about taking time to make sure that whatever bullet you use to hunt with is the right tool for whatever job you're setting out to do. And making sure that they are prepared right and in proper condition.

 

[18whlsrolin]

A lot of conversations have been kicked up on this subject since Randy of Randys custom guns in Cody WY started making YouTube videos by the name The Real Gunsmith. He kinda rants on a few vids about how almost all cup and core bullet are insufficient for elk sized game. He does have lots of experience. I would have to agree with him that Barnes along with others like hornady gmx and Nosler partition are overall superior to cup and core for hunting big game. But obviously many cup and cores have done great for tons of people so on and on it'll go.
I will say that when shooting white tails I have seen many more boat tail cup and core bullets explode in multi unwanted directions upon contact with heavy bones compared to flat based cup and core. Hornady interlok flat based vs many BTs is what I've compared the most.
Now I mostly shoot partitions or gmx and get great repeatable performance weather I hit shoulder or just behind it.

 

[YZ-80]

Well, I think this happened to me once with a 90 grain Nosler Ballistic tip on a fat doe at about 125 yards. Shot placement was good but wound channel was pencil-thin. I was pushing the bullet pretty hard so I backed off 1.5 grains and didn't have the problem again. Still might have been a fluke, however.

 

[bigngreen]

This is exactly why u don't use target Bullets for hunting as I just posted on another thread on this site , the results can Lead to lost animals and suffering !

Every animal I've had to recover for someone was shot with a hunting bullet, every animal I personally have had to work hard to recover has been a hunting bullet, hunting bullets are why I switched to target bullets and haven't had nothing but excellence, WAY higher percentage of easy recovery, infact 100%!

 

[lancetkenyon]

Most of my hunting rifles shoot "target" bullets.
.223 69 SMK
6CM 105 Hybrid
6.5SLR 130 Hybrid OTM
6.5SS 150 SMK
.280AI 175 Elite Hunter or 160 TMK
7RM 180 Hybrid
.300RUM 215 or 230 Hybrid

Knock on wood, but every animal either I, or family and friends have shot has died very quickly. From 10 to 1365 yards. From coyotes and javalina to big bull elk. Not hundreds of big game animals, but probably 50-60 I have personally been a part of. Add coyotes....and the numbers go way up.

 

[greatwhitehntr]

I have been reading of people saying they have taken a shot at close range and claiming the bullet penciled through the animal. I even called Berger and talked to a tech about my typical close range shots and he said the bullets are moving too fast to get expansion time. I find this hard to believe especially at 308 Win and 7-08 velocities at 50-125 yards.

What are your thoughts on small entrances and exits? Is it lack of expansion or is it too much expansion and the small exit is just the jacket or fragmentation? Or is it something else?

Thanks
Steve

I don't know what that gentleman is talking about. I know about 20 dudes on this forum and about 100 more in Nevada that would have something to say about that. We are all afraid of shooting things too close with Berger bullets. I made that mistake about 2 years ago, It was brutally disgusting. A 300 ultra mag 230 Berger bad juju on 89 yards on mule deer like body parts fly. That was the hybrid that wasn't even the hunting bullet. A 7mag with 168 VLD Hunting Berger at 60 yards is almost as bad.

 

[greatwhitehntr]

This is exactly why u don't use target Bullets for hunting as I just posted on another thread on this site , the results can Lead to lost animals and suffering !

???
What in your opinion makes a target bullet a target bullet? I'm just asking cuz I've seen every type of bullet fail, I've seen every type of bullet do it's job too.
I mean to me Remington core locks makea good varmint rounds cuz they're so explosive., That's a hunting bullet. I've seen Swift Sirocco's punch right through animals. I've watched barns bullets punch right through animals never opening somewhere too far of a shot in my opinion for that style of bullet. I watched a Nazareth blow the leg off of a cruise deer entrance side. I will say 300 SMK out of a 338 edge works really good I wouldn't take that chance I know dudes who do. I've had bad luck with Sierra bullets myself.
Could you enlighten me on this a little?

 

[Almondgrower]

I know what youre trying to say but there has to be common sense used with whatever bullet you use. My personal belief is there is a greater chance of losing an animal, with a so called hunting bullet, at long range, and this is a "long range hunting forum"!

Target Bullets normally have much thicker jackets to resist deformation while in the barrel making it a much higher chance of not opening up and transferring energy . I agree with the common sense part of using a bullet correctly that's the only reason I posted . A fragmenting bullet turning vitals to jelly is dead animal for sure but this is based on a worst case of a misplaced shot at no fault of the shooter. A large bull elk hit in the shoulder next to a deep canyon ....... pretty good chance it could splat on the shoulder blade and the bull runs into the timber with a broken leg at best maybe to b found maybe not . A bonded or solid would more the likely punch threw , ( or at least give a better chance of ) breaking down the entire front end and allow game to be collected. Remember , this is worst case and assuming the bullet/cartridge/distance is all correct . That's why I agree for sure about common sense

 

[lancetkenyon]

Target Bullets normally have much thicker jackets to resist deformation while in the barrel making it a much higher chance of not opening up and transferring energy . I agree with the common sense part of using a bullet correctly that's the only reason I posted . A fragmenting bullet turning vitals to jelly is dead animal for sure but this is based on a worst case of a misplaced shot at no fault of the shooter. A large bull elk hit in the shoulder next to a deep canyon ....... pretty good chance it could splat on the shoulder blade and the bull runs into the timber with a broken leg at best maybe to b found maybe not . A bonded or solid would more the likely punch threw , ( or at least give a better chance of ) breaking down the entire front end and allow game to be collected. Remember , this is worst case and assuming the bullet/cartridge/distance is all correct . That's why I agree for sure about common sense

Whoa.....in the other thread.....you stated "target bullets blow up"......so which is it? Blow up or not opening up? Again, you give a poor example of shooter error, not bullet failure. Know your rifle, know your loads, know your game anatomy, know your limitations, know your freezer will be filled.

 

[Almondgrower]

Greatwhitehtr:

In my 30 years of hunting , the ONLY Bullets I have seen fail are target Bullets that friends were using . I took a nosler accubond to the extreme one time and I normally would never take a shoulder shot on a big bull elk but a buddy hit it and broke a rear leg low . After tracking it ,I finally found him but he was standing rite on a ledge of a massive deep rocky timber filled canyon that we would have a terrible time getting to him let alone using horses . I needed to anchor him rite there . I shot him with my 30/378 and a 150g accubond @3700 FPS . The bullet blew apart both front shoulders sending baseball size chunks of bone from the on side threw the heart and lungs and a perfect quarter size exit hole dropping the bull rite in his tracks . That is about as Extreme as it gets to test a hunting bullet . All I'm saying is a hunting bullet gives you a wider performance range for unintended events then a target bullet ( may ) . I was somewhat disappointed about a eldx that I shot a deer with tho ..... went threw and lodged in a dirt bank 4' behind , I expected a mushroom of some sort but the lead core was about 6" deeper and the jacket ( like a cup with nothing in it ) was closer to the surface. Vary good chance dirt caused it but I have had friends had similar eldm Bullets do the same thing when recovered in a animal . Worst case is my point hopefully giving the best chance for a clean dispatch , I agree , dead is dead when u hit the vitals but that's shot is not guaranteed . It's up to us as hunters and shooters to know the limits of our setup . A copper bullet shot into a animal @ 1000fps .....definitely a hunting bullet failure for sure