Building your own laminated stock

[65WSM]

I have some background in the paint industry. Many of the same resins are used for adhesives. What is Titebond III and why would it be better than a 100% solids epoxy that could also be used in the bedding? I suspect that the Titebond would continue to shrink, unlike the 100% solids expoxy, and would change dimensions as it continued to serve over the years? I like my stocks to not change the stresses on the action. If it is so good. Than how come we are not bedding actions with Titebond III ?

 

[ntsqd]

I'll disagree that Titebond is the absolute best bonding option. I've no doubt that it is good stuff, but I don't' see it being used anywhere in plywood wooden boat construction. As it happens this type of boat construction is something I've recently been researching in prep for building an all wood tear-drop trailer. Epoxies rule the kit boat and plywood boat building world, either as a bonding agent or as a filleting/fairing agent when it has micro-balloons or chopped glass strands mixed into it. The Cold Mold building process is very close to how a laminate stock is made, only the laminates are intentionally biased towards each other and are bonded in place while curved (sometimes compound curved at that) rather than laid flat.

The only single part bonding agent that I've ever seen used in my boat building research is one guy used Lock-tite PL 4000 construction adhesive, and he only used it above the waterline to bond MDF into place that was later encapsulated in epoxy and fibreglas. Below the water line was all epoxy.

The pdf that I mentioned earlier in this thread: https://www.westsystem.com/the-gougeon-brothers-on-boat-construction/
Some other references:

Boatbuilding Tips | Shop Tips for Boatbuilders, Stitch & Glue and Strip-Planked Boatbuilding by Chesapeake Light Craft

Boatbuilding Methods

www.glen-l.com

I'll post up some more details later but would absolutely use "Titebond III" which is the Titebond Ultimate referenced by @corsair4360 earlier. http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af Home Depot has it here but I buy gallons from the supplier.

For the wood to wood bonds it will absolutely be the best choice. You need good even clamping pressure. I use cauls with my glueups for more even pressure. You need a good supply of bar, pipe or similar clamps. Make sure the wood is stable and not too smooth on the surface. A glue line rip blade leaves a texture that is just about right for the glue to bite. Titebond III will give a stronger than wood bond when layed up correctly and the color is a good match to the walnut for any tiny seams. It also sands decent for finishing.

@J E Custom is spot on in his description as to "why" a laminate is better. I prefer the look of a beautifully figured perfect grain stock but the laminates do have some advantages.

Epoxy is best for any inserts, bedding, bonds to dissimilar materials or to build up.

 

[jpndave]

We can agree to disagree here I guess. We're not building a boat. Do you plan to submerge the stock, doubling as a paddle? The Titebond III is not designed to be used below the water line. Not for anything other than wood to wood layups with a wafer thin build if that. It is designed to do exactly what we are discussing. And for that application it works exceptionally well. I stand by the recommendation for the lamination ONLY. Epoxy everywhere else. I would never think of bedding with it, fairing with it, or anything with any sort of glue thickness. Wood to wood only. When clamped up almost everything squeezes out. There's nothing left to "shrink". You will get more movement in the wood itself.

I like MAS epoxies. West is also very good. I built a cedar strip canoe years ago and you don't glue up the strips with epoxy. Titebond strip to strip. Epoxy everywhere else.

Marine ply is also not generally epoxy. I believe it is a phenolic glue layer to layer. Use that if you have an industrial press and ability to do so.

 

[ntsqd]

My point was that epoxy will laugh at ANY hunting condition. I'm not convinced that Titebond can. As best as I can tell Titebond was intended for sub-floors and similar, not weather exposure.

The cold molding that I've researched uses epoxy to bond the laminations and nothing else has ever been mentioned.

 

[jpndave]

My point was that epoxy will laugh at ANY hunting condition. I'm not convinced that Titebond can. As best as I can tell Titebond was intended for sub-floors and similar, not weather exposure.

The cold molding that I've researched uses epoxy to bond the laminations and nothing else has ever been mentioned.

I don't want to start a debate here especially with generalities and no experience references. If I am reading that correctly you have zero experience with Titebond (the company) let alone Titebond III (the product) specifically. And, you are lumping all epoxies together and making general assumptions based on internet research about "cold molding". Correct me wherever I am wrong here.

Epoxy is a type of glue. Within that type there are many different examples. For example, MAS (or the West System or whatever brand you prefer) are low viscosity resins designed to do wet layups and fairing using the microbeads and chopped glass referenced above. They excel at that. However, they would be a mess to try and bed with. Now try and do a layup with Devcon putty, good luck! However it is great for bedding. Both are epoxies. Then there are the 5 minute cheap epoxies you would find at Wal-Mart that might work to glue your kids toys back together. My point is each has a place with some overlap.

I have done cold molding a lot with Titebond and a bit with the epoxies. They both have their place. I can see using the epoxy on a detailed cold mold layup for a boat especially where that is what you are using for everything else. I used Titebond to layup a steam bent stem for that canoe's ends with cherry wood. Worked great and super strong. It is encased in epoxy and cloth. The wood will fail before the glue does.

Using recommendations from here, I tried attaching an ebony tip using a super high grade epoxy to a stock blank. Big mistake, popped of when is fell 2-3 feet. The oils in ebony don't play well with epoxy.

I have a lot of experience with woods of all types and the glues we are talking about. Quite a bit with epoxies in multiple applications from composite layups, bedding and the limited boat building I referenced.

I could make the layup with my MAS low viscosity resin and slow catalyst but I wouldn't do it. It is messy, time consuming and does not give a better product. When I do one of those stocks, that part of the build up will be Titebond III with the cauls and some serious clamping pressure evenly applied. Either way the wood would fail before the glue does and it will be coated to protect it.

 

[tobnpr]

A stock blank has the grain running in the same direction and is therefore subject to warpage. If you take that same 2" blank and saw it into 1/16 thick sheets and then glue it back together with proper planning and placement of each laminate it will be stronger and resist warpage better. It becomes a structural member when it is done properly.

Good point raised.

 

[PartsJr.]

Thank you all for your input.
I'll do a little more research on adhesives.
As I stated, I'm in "planning mode" at the moment. I sure like the looks of some of the dark laminates that resemble or are an all laminated walnut stock (see Shehane stocks). I'll be sure to take pictures documenting the process start to finish when I pull the trigger.
Wishing everyone an enjoyable thanksgiving.
I know that I have a lot to be thankful for.

 

[West Calamus]

Making your own Laminate is a labor intensive project but well worth the effort if done right.
I have done it for gun stocks and knife handles and have never had a failure so I know it can be done.

In my opinion, the important things to get right are the types of wood used (Low oil content), clean fresh planing (As little handling as possible after it is plained), I also prefer a good slow cure high strength Epoxy with a well thought out clamping system. (The better the clamping, the better the end product). I prefer using steel strong backs for clamping to distribute the pressure more evenly.

Don't know anything about installing steel tubes or bars in the laminates as they are being made, because they are not needed in my opinion and could cause failures because of the differences in materials. If you notice, laminates have the grain running in different directions. This adds strength and rigidity.

Planning the grain lay out and proper clamping is very important for strength and dampening
harmonics. Mixing different types and colors of wood is not only very beautiful , but also very strong. Good luck on your project.

Maybe Joel Russo will chime in and offer some advice. I know he also has done some laminating and is the Guru in this area as far as I am concerned.

J E CUSTOM

And this why we will miss his wisdom. What a range of knowledge,

 

[longrangebob]

& for the unenlightened - who is gone ? LRB

 

[West Calamus]

& for the unenlightened - who is gone ? LRB

Jerry of JE custom passed away last week.

 

[ntsqd]

I don't want to start a debate here especially with generalities and no experience references. If I am reading that correctly you have zero experience with Titebond (the company) let alone Titebond III (the product) specifically. And, you are lumping all epoxies together and making general assumptions based on internet research about "cold molding". Correct me wherever I am wrong here.

Epoxy is a type of glue. Within that type there are many different examples. For example, MAS (or the West System or whatever brand you prefer) are low viscosity resins designed to do wet layups and fairing using the microbeads and chopped glass referenced above. They excel at that. However, they would be a mess to try and bed with. Now try and do a layup with Devcon putty, good luck! However it is great for bedding. Both are epoxies. Then there are the 5 minute cheap epoxies you would find at Wal-Mart that might work to glue your kids toys back together. My point is each has a place with some overlap.

I have done cold molding a lot with Titebond and a bit with the epoxies. They both have their place. I can see using the epoxy on a detailed cold mold layup for a boat especially where that is what you are using for everything else. I used Titebond to layup a steam bent stem for that canoe's ends with cherry wood. Worked great and super strong. It is encased in epoxy and cloth. The wood will fail before the glue does.

Using recommendations from here, I tried attaching an ebony tip using a super high grade epoxy to a stock blank. Big mistake, popped of when is fell 2-3 feet. The oils in ebony don't play well with epoxy.

I have a lot of experience with woods of all types and the glues we are talking about. Quite a bit with epoxies in multiple applications from composite layups, bedding and the limited boat building I referenced.

I could make the layup with my MAS low viscosity resin and slow catalyst but I wouldn't do it. It is messy, time consuming and does not give a better product. When I do one of those stocks, that part of the build up will be Titebond III with the cauls and some serious clamping pressure evenly applied. Either way the wood would fail before the glue does and it will be coated to protect it.

I was specifically referring to West Systems and Total Boat epoxies & similar, not epoxies like Devcon or any of the potting types of epoxies. I have used Titebond products and I'm not disparaging them, I just would never consider them for a laminated stock blank. Or for the all wood pop-top camper build that prompted my research.

For a laminated stock blank build-up I'd invest in a vacuum pump and learn that process. Degas the bonding agent and uniformly "clamp" the assembly together at the same time.

EDIT: Posted while not seeing the news about JE. Truly sad, a loss for his family, his community, and this community. RIP

 

[DSheetz]

And I shall take a few minutes to reflect and respect him !

 

[longrangebob]

I shall Pause … I will miss the insights and experience he shared … If not too personal, what happened?? LRB

 

[West Calamus]

I shall Pause … I will miss the insights and experience he shared … If not too personal, what happened?? LRB

All the info on JE is listed in thread - not good News ,but- under General discussion forum