Brass splitting at neck/shoulder. Lots of pics.

[westcliffe01]

Remember this ? Flip, you and I both know that whoever it was that pulled thousands/millions of bullets didn't use a pair of pliers. These were manufacturing defects in the new brass. It actually looked like a lap. Now I will say that it only affected about 2% of my batch but was very disconcerting until I had carefully inspected everything, annealed them and done the FL resize. When nothing failed that I had not already visually sorted, I felt pretty relieved.

 

[Bullet bumper]

Do you dry lube the inside and outside of the neck ?
Could ammonia from bore solvents be contaminating the case necks ?
Do you leave you ammo loaded for long periods of time ?

My thinking is that the brass was work hardened from the factory , it could have sat around for years getting harder before sale and the die system is adding extra work hardening , reducing friction helps , plus high neck tension may be adding to stress corrosion in the brass over time ,
Brass quality could be low and impurities in the brass could be helping cracks start . If the neck is too hard then expansion from firing will make cracking more likely .
If any ammonia is contacting the brass in any process that also speeds up stress corrosion cracking. Look up , " stress corrosion in brass " .
I am not sure what dies are available for the 30-378 but if you can't buy a body die I would be making one by cutting the head off a Full Length sizing die and drilling the neck out to just over the neck diameter of a loaded round.
Then if you can't buy a Lee collet die for it I would try and modify one from a similar 30 cal cartridge . You don't have to size the full length of the neck and collet dies can be adjusted as to where they size with a washer over the case on the shell holder.
That should not happen after only 3 reloads so there is more than one thing going on here.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Remember this ? Flip, you and I both know that whoever it was that pulled thousands/millions of bullets didn't use a pair of pliers. These were manufacturing defects in the new brass. It actually looked like a lap. Now I will say that it only affected about 2% of my batch but was very disconcerting until I had carefully inspected everything, annealed them and done the FL resize. When nothing failed that I had not already visually sorted, I felt pretty relieved.

Sure do. I also remember your discourse with the supplier. I still wonder about who else bought them and what they wound up with.

I've never seen any comments anywhere on any forum....

I've often wondered how a mass pull is done, I wonder if the supplier has a regimen of Manpower temps sitting around a table banging kinetic pullers or if they do use pliers....lol

I see they are still for sale on the site.

The 1500 I got were perfect but they were OF. I cringed at the goo in the necks.

Did you pop the primers and use what you got from me or did you leave the factory primers intact?

I still think he has headspace issues and/or a buggered chamber but time (and a borescope) will tell I guess.

 

[westcliffe01]

Flip, I wanted the mag primers for the 6.5x284. To this day I still do not have the barrel, so I have not loaded anything. Since I did not know what the original problem was that resulted in the 308 LR ammo getting pulled, I deprimed everything and reprimed them with CCI 200, at least I had those. The loads I tested worked out real well with the 175gr SMK's.

I think the brass was bad from the factory. In addition, he probably has a loose chamber and when it is FL resided it works the brass a lot too. The shape of the shoulder on that brass looks really unusual (radiused not conical). But I do not own a WBY so do not really know what looks right with them.

 

[fishwater]

I stuck one piece on scotch tape on the back of one of these brass and my bolt will not close. This only added 1-2 thou length, so I think my headspace is ok?

This stuff came with the rifle when I bought it. I think it was pretty darn old despite the fact that I was told it had only been reloaded once.

I think the fact that I FL resized them didn't help matters either.

@ Bulletbumper, I do not lube the outside of the necks, but I brush the insides with a brush that has a small amount of case lube on it. I do use Barnes bore cleaner on this rifle occasionally, but I think the chances that it contaminated this brass is very small. Yes, this ammo was loaded for over a year before I shot it. I thought that was acceptable?

Thanks.

 

[SidecarFlip]

In retrospect, I thought the necks looked strange too but I don't own anything WBY either (you know that).

Far as lubing the inside of the necks, I use one shot and a nylon brush or motor mica, whatever I have on hand.

I'm bummed, Terry is out of 300 grain Thors. I'll have to use the 290 Barnes on opening day down here. Oh well.

I've shot recently, 20 year old rounds that were handloaded by my late uncle with no issue. They went bang and the brass will be reloaded. Looks just fine.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I stuck one piece on scotch tape on the back of one of these brass and my bolt will not close. This only added 1-2 thou length, so I think my headspace is ok?

This stuff came with the rifle when I bought it. I think it was pretty darn old despite the fact that I was told it had only been reloaded once.

I think the fact that I FL resized them didn't help matters either.

@ Bulletbumper, I do not lube the outside of the necks, but I brush the insides with a brush that has a small amount of case lube on it. I do use Barnes bore cleaner on this rifle occasionally, but I think the chances that it contaminated this brass is very small. Yes, this ammo was loaded for over a year before I shot it. I thought that was acceptable?

Thanks.

Not sure thats a viable standard if you used one of the compromised cases because the necks are euchred up.

You need to get some unfired (new) brass or factory loads and send a couple pills and then do the headspace check on the fireformed case, comparing it to an unfired or one of the fireformed rounds you sent. That will tell the story, if it is a story that is.

I'm almost willing to bet that the FL resized case will be a couple thousands longer from the datum line to the base compared to the fireformed case.

Finally, are you getting any brass on the bolt face and/or any shiny marks on the case base perimeter?

 

[westcliffe01]

Spend $30 + a few more in shipping and get a "go" gauge from mansonreamers.com for your rifle. Then repeat the test you just did. THAT will be the answer to the question. I am also suspecting that the neck dimension of the chamber is "generous" so you need to measure a neck after you resize it (on a new case, not that brittle junk) and install a bullet. Get that OD then compare it to the OD after firing. Too much clearance there will really hurt your brass.

I stuck one piece on scotch tape on the back of one of these brass and my bolt will not close. This only added 1-2 thou length, so I think my headspace is ok?
Thanks.

 

[Bullet bumper]

I stuck one piece on scotch tape on the back of one of these brass and my bolt will not close. This only added 1-2 thou length, so I think my headspace is ok?

This stuff came with the rifle when I bought it. I think it was pretty darn old despite the fact that I was told it had only been reloaded once.

I think the fact that I FL resized them didn't help matters either.

@ Bulletbumper, I do not lube the outside of the necks, but I brush the insides with a brush that has a small amount of case lube on it. I do use Barnes bore cleaner on this rifle occasionally, but I think the chances that it contaminated this brass is very small. Yes, this ammo was loaded for over a year before I shot it. I thought that was acceptable?

Thanks.

So you are saying that you size the necks without any lube ??
If that is what you are saying then the necks are going to be work hardened a lot and the brass may have been very hard before you got it ! Very hard necks sitting around loaded (under stress ) for a year adds extra hardness but the cracking is on the shoulder not the neck so maybe the neck sizing without lube is flexing the necks enough to start the cracks more than anything else . I also think that the brass has impurities in it . However I think several things are working together .
A good dry lube for neck sizing is 50% Moly powder and 50% graphite mix.
To further reduce friction on the necks polish up inside the case necks with a clean bore brush wrapped in a thin layer of wire wool . Chuck it in an electric screw driver and go in and out a few times. Then polish up the outside of the case neck with wire wool. When you add the dry lube into the mix the sizing job will be much easier on the case necks in future .
Ammo loaded for a year is quite ok if the brass is soft and good quality to start with but your neck tension will be higher and more inconsistent then when it was first loaded but add this year to already hard necks .

 

[LONGSHOOTER]

It is a pressure excursion, and the crack locations are the site of the yield point.

Lose that brass with unknown history, and work up another load.

Boy, those bullets DO infringe the powder space! Why not seat them out?

Some of those cases look like they have been crimped, which is a function possible with your seater die, either intentionally, or because of some overlong cases. Have you checked your brass OAL?

Crimping can elevate pressure, as can deep seated bullets with full house loads.

 

[fishwater]

Thank you for the replies.

That was my first thought, that I messed up the bullet seating, and they might have been crimped a bit. It was scary, because EVERY SINGLE BULLET was coming out cracked.

The cases were all trimmed to length before being loaded, and were all within spec.

Also, the cartridge is already over COAL spec. I could seat them out a bit further but they are right in the middle, in between the recommended, and absolute max length right now. That bullet is just really long!

Remember, once I took these remaining bullets apart, the brass was incredibly hard/brittle.

I am in the process of getting new brass, and will be paying very close attention to the loading process, especially the lubing and neck/shoulder resizing part.

I really appreciate all the help.

 

[Bullet bumper]

Thank you for the replies.

That was my first thought, that I messed up the bullet seating, and they might have been crimped a bit. It was scary, because EVERY SINGLE BULLET was coming out cracked.

The cases were all trimmed to length before being loaded, and were all within spec.

Also, the cartridge is already over COAL spec. I could seat them out a bit further but they are right in the middle, in between the recommended, and absolute max length right now. That bullet is just really long!

Remember, once I took these remaining bullets apart, the brass was incredibly hard/brittle.

I am in the process of getting new brass, and will be paying very close attention to the loading process, especially the lubing and neck/shoulder resizing part.

I really appreciate all the help.

You are on the right track to better reloads and not over working your brass . It's not all your fault as I am fairly certain the brass was very hard and poor quality when you got it . If you do use expander ball type dies then annealing is also a good idea after say 3 reloads in your case .
I still say get someone to make a body die out of a 30-378 Full length sizing die and it will solve a lot of issues . Also don't size all the way to the shoulder as this will take some stress off the expander ball as it comes back through .
Brass works well when it's the right hardness for the job harder at the base softer at the shoulder and mouth but if it's too hard where it needs to be soft then things can change rapidly . As hardness increases the grain structure changes and the brass looses it's ability to stretch without fracture .
Get a piece of thin brass plate and cut it in two , bend one piece back and forth until it fatigues and breaks . Then bend the other one once and anneal it with a blow torch then when cool bend it again and so on , it will go on and on not breaking .