Brass sizing question

[tribb]

Are you replying to the wrong thread perhaps?
Nothing about my post relates to or counters your understanding of bushing neck sizing.
Nobody in this thread has implied higher pressures from bushing neck sizing.

So yes, you are confused

Yep I am confused about this "when you size beyond the seated bullet bearing, you cause unexpanded neck to bind the bullet's bearing-base junction. This is not tension, it's binding.
In this scenario you're also bringing donut thickness (which is inconsistent) into play, for inconsistent tension. I'm trying to learn and understand exactly what is going on here. You have to ask questions about things in order to better understand them. please educate me here thanks

 

[Mikecr]

I was talking about higher/inconsistent tension with downsizing beyond seated bullet bearing (excess length of sizing, like FL sizing).
What you described in response is opposite of this, normal & good.

 

[tribb]

I was talking about higher/inconsistent tension with downsizing beyond seated bullet bearing (excess length of sizing, like FL sizing).
What you described in response is opposite of this, normal & good.

Roger that thanks

 

[njc89]

Well, lubing necks didn't make much difference in seating force needed. The VLD seater is still leaving rings on the Bergers. I suspect the Lapua brass may just be a lot stiffer than the other brands I have worked with.

So... been trying to digest all the advice here for the past several days. Looks like I need a neck turning setup, a bushing die, several bushings to get the right size, sizing mandrels and die... oh, and eventually an arbor press - basically starting from scratch with my setup. Wife just won't understand.

In the meantime, would you expect better results sizing the brass without the expander, and coming back with a mandrel die slightly larger than the .263 sizer that's on my current die?

thanks for the responses guys. I was hoping for a less expensive course of action, but I do appreciate the help. Pay to play I guess.

 

[whirlwindjml]

I reread your OP and realize I missed a few things.

I just loaded a few for my brother with non bushing die. His 308 lapua brass with bullet measure. 338 and before seating his sized brass came in @ .327. That's fine for ave joe reloader but when your trying get good ES and SD you do need more controlled reloading techniques. His es was only 18fps on 8 shots which surprised me. I did use graphite on neck. I think when his bushing die comes hell do better.

If you measure loaded round and subtract. 001 then you have your bushing size. Some people like 2 or 3 thou tension for hunting.

I would skip the neck turn stuff. There's whole debates on it and there's plenty of top notch shooter who dont do it. For now skip it. I shot the group (pic) last week with a 338 lapua bushing size ..365 for .002 tension and didn't neck turn. That's a factory savage.

Bottom line. A bushing die. For now I would try the lee collet. Even on the sized brass you already did. The neck sizers are fine for 1 load but in the long run full length gives reliability (no stuck bolt ect).

And many people remove the expander ball. I personally do.

Thats what has worked well for me. For what its worth a bushing die with no bushing in it to bum shoulder .002 back and your lee collet on the neck may do wonders too.

 

[njc89]

I reread your OP and realize I missed a few things.

I just loaded a few for my brother with non bushing die. His 308 lapua brass with bullet measure. 338 and before seating his sized brass came in @ .327. That's fine for ave joe reloader but when your trying get good ES and SD you do need more controlled reloading techniques. His es was only 18fps on 8 shots which surprised me. I did use graphite on neck. I think when his bushing die comes hell do better.

If you measure loaded round and subtract. 001 then you have your bushing size. Some people like 2 or 3 thou tension for hunting.

I would skip the neck turn stuff. There's whole debates on it and there's plenty of top notch shooter who dont do it. For now skip it. I shot the group (pic) last week with a 338 lapua bushing size ..365 for .002 tension and didn't neck turn. That's a factory savage.

Bottom line. A bushing die. For now I would try the lee collet. Even on the sized brass you already did. The neck sizers are fine for 1 load but in the long run full length gives reliability (no stuck bolt ect).

And many people remove the expander ball. I personally do.

Thats what has worked well for me. For what its worth a bushing die with no bushing in it to bum shoulder .002 back and your lee collet on the neck may do wonders too.

Can I ask what the Lee collet die is? What will that do for me?

Another question on the bushing dies. I have a new 28 nosler that I will start reloading for soon. Just to shoot it, I bought some factory Hornady and Nosler ammo. I measured the neck thickness of the loaded ammo this morning. The Hornady was 0.315 and the Nosler cases were 0.318. I assume I would want 2 different bushings if I were to load for the different brass??? Obviously I won't be mixing them but won't be throwing any of it away either. Thank you again. This last post was very helpful

 

[nkyshooter]

.315 vs .318 between the Hornady and the Nosler indicates the brass on one is thicker than on the other ... if you want to use a bushing die, you would need to outside neck turn (or possibly inside ream) so that all the necks are equal thickness and therefore the bushing would then create identical internal diameter ... I don't care for this approach myself as I don't like to neck turn ... (NOTE: you should maintain consistency of brand/head stamp and if possible Lot# on brass when loading for accuracy or when approaching upper end of charge windows)

The collet die mentioned from Lee will squeeze the neck around a centered mandrel that is the "right size" for the caliber ... and it doesn't matter what the neck thickness and therefore outside diameter is (so long as it safely chambers in the neck dimensions of YOUR rifle's chamber) ... if you want to vary the neck tension in the collet/mandrel setup, you just use a smaller or larger mandrel as opposed to a smaller or larger bushing ...

Lee Precision, Inc.. Lee Collet Dies

Lee Preicsion Collet Neck-sizing Dies

leeprecision.com

I've gone to the collet approach for nearly all my reloading - even when I Full Length size (I remove the stem with expander) ... because there is no expander required when using a collet, the "pull" back across the expander (which creates a significant risk of adding runout) never happens and I end up with 0 +/- .001" runout consistently. My de-cap happens with the stem of the collet and still no expander.

Brass will last longer this way as the neck is worked far less (absolute minimum in fact) and run out is also minimum. Bushing dies can do this as well in all fairness but have other disadvantages (and also advantages) such as neck turning or the dreaded "donut" that can develop at the neck shoulder junction and you end up outside neck turning anyway ... or again ...

oh - and awesome group with that "junker" savage @whirlwindjml ... (I own and shoot almost nothing BUT savage 10/110 now for that very reason combined with the price)

 

[whirlwindjml]

Can I ask what the Lee collet die is? What will that do for me?

Another question on the bushing dies. I have a new 28 nosler that I will start reloading for soon. Just to shoot it, I bought some factory Hornady and Nosler ammo. I measured the neck thickness of the loaded ammo this morning. The Hornady was 0.315 and the Nosler cases were 0.318. I assume I would want 2 different bushings if I were to load for the different brass??? Obviously I won't be mixing them but won't be throwing any of it away either. Thank you again. This last post was very helpful

The above post describes the lee collet well. It drops a mandrel in the case and squeezes the neck against the mandrel. Works good but only does the neck. That can cause problems loading and ejecting later after a few firings. So you are better to full length.

As was mentioned you dont need to lube neck. The graphite is for lubing ID of neck after its sized so the bullet releases smoothly everytime. I DO THIS now and my ES lowered.

Personally I would just go with the hornady full length bushing die with a .313 and .316 bushing. There are $$ dies out there but I think your results will improve fine with the 55$ hornady die.

Again...
The neck turning has a time and a place but the problems haven't showed up on the paper I've shot or the rocks at 1000 yards. I'd save your money for now.

 

[whirlwindjml]

Shawn put this out last year. Should answer help ya

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

remove your expander from the fl die .. size one and measure outside neck

put expander back in and size another one ..measure the out side of neck again and compare the difference

divide that by 2 .. then subtract .002 neck tentio needed .. that remainder is how much you could turn off the neck walls before having to upgrade to a bushing die ..

the FL die will still size down and up with existing expander button as long as you dont turn off more than that amount

buy a turner first with turner pilot .. see if you can get by with just that and some graphite spray on a brush

should also put some calipers on that fl die expander button .. see what your working with

 

[H82MISS]

tagging in

 

[Mikecr]

You should avoid FL sizing of necks.
Only size a length of neck that is no more than seated bullet bearing.
Bushing dies are excellent for this plan, as the neck sizing length is adjustable with them.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

id agree mikecr is giving you a good path .. but if your budget only allowed a turning tool and pilot it gives you a workaround until you can afford all tools needed

 

[MNbogboy]

I have some once fired Lapua brass (from Berger factory ammo) that I am reloading for my 260 rem. Dies are standard Redding FL (not bushing), and I am using the Redding competition shell holders that help uniformly control the shoulder bump. When sizing the brass, I notice some of the cases are much more difficult than others to pull the expander ball out of the neck on the press's down stroke. I am using Imperial sizing wax on all the cases for sizing. When loading the bullets, some are a tighter fit than others.

I understand the concept of uniform neck tension aiding accuracy, but don't know where best to focus to best address this concern. Does this seem like a case of varying neck thickness in the brass? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Neal

A lot of good advice here but...
before anybody talks you into buying more equipment (which you probably will someday), learning to use what you have first will be more important.
@johnnyk 's advice to lightly brush/lube the inside of your case mouths will probably clear up most of your concerns at the present. His method sounds exactly like my method, have done this for years and it most definitely will smooth out the "hard to withdraw" and "squeeky" removal of the expander button from your necks.
Good luck