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Brass manufacturer difference?

With a couple guns this is fine I have twelve 223's I full length resize and motor on no worries. No I will add that in my 6.5 Creedmoor one of my kids lost my shell holder and I grabbed a different brand one I had with some other dies and didn't think to check shoulder bump well long story short with .015" shoulder bump after a few firings I had a case give me a little incepint head separation and left the brass with no head in the chamber and me with no easy out bolt extractors on hand had to pack up and head to the garage.

As I said before, it's not if - it's only when.

You are getting away with it because you full length size. But sooner or later you are gunna get bit and you won't know why and you will be on this forum asking for help to figure out why your gun is acting up.

If you research this forum you will find many threads on this very subject. You won't be the first and you won't be the last.

My advice is simple - don't do it.
 
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Is there any difference in .223 to 5.56 brass?


Some chambers in 223 are short throated and the 5.56 will produce higher pressure.

It is ok to shoot 223 in a 5.56 chamber but not recommended the other way around. If you chamber in 223 Wilde you can safely shoot ether.

https://www.google.com/search?q=223....69i57j0l5.11444j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Some do it and get away with it, but if you have a rifle chambered for a 223 It is best not to use ammo head stamped 5.56.

J E CUSTOM
 
Well, it doesn't really matter if the brass is different then because you need to keep them separated anyway. You should NEVER use any brass in more than just one rifle. Lots of people do it (especially those that full length size every time), but it's a very bad practice that will bite you REALLY REALLY HARD someday where it REALLY REALLY HURTS. It's not if, it's only when. Even rifles chambered with the same reamer should have their own separate brass because headspace can be different.

I m interested in why it matters if you do full length resizing. Please explain. How will it bite you?
 
Has anybody taken a hard look at Starline Brass? Ive heard it was good quality but Im not sure anybody looks at it as hard and critically as you guys!!
 
You can read the reviews for yourself
and it's 50/50 ,mostly about the primer pockets.I've never tried it.I'll stick with what I have.Unless someone wants to give me some,then I'll try it.starline brass
 
Brass don't really matter for your application. At least, as long as it is not damaged and was fired in your firearm. "Reloading" means different things to different people.... If you're reloading empty cases that were fired in your weapons, then you've eliminated a lot of variables.

What ammunition do you buy? If you're gonna buy components rather than packaged ammo, then you're getting into "Handloading". Look at the costs of various mfr brass and read the reviews. Nobody buys Federal .223 cases because they're regarded as "too soft". In a hunting application, probably don't matter; but "soft" brass stretches and thereby weakens more which means less strength and limited caselife.

What's "hunting" mean to you? Here, on this forum, it can mean 1000yd shots at game, or longer. Best **** well handload the finest ammo you can craft with finest components if you expect consistency at any real distance.

If you're going to invest your time and money in loading your own, may as well go all-in and do the best you can do... If you've saved your empties, you're ahead of the game. I would eliminate all the load variables by buying the Sierra Bullets loading manual and following their accuracy loads using the exact bullet and components given, and by using all preparation advice contained. Read the introductory how-tos and buy Quality tools. A high-quality scale is a must, with a check-weight set to be SURE of the most critical variables. Do not substitute any components in the given formulas. Using brass fired in your weaons eliminates lots of variables.

Once you are competent at loading quality ammunition, you have a diagnostic tool for achieving top accuracy from your rifles. Using the Sierra Accuracy Load with their bullet and all specific components eliminates a great many variables. Precision shooting takes scientific approach to variable isolation... Once ammunition and weapon are tuned to reliable accuracy levels, the only remaining variable is YOU. This holds true for hunting or shooting off the bench. Good luck!
 
The .223/5.56 is a very versatile round for handloading. If you're looking for precision/accuracy; with a 1:8 or faster twist barrel you can load up to 75/77 & 80gr match bullets which are THE CHOICE for 600yd target shooters. These tough-jacketed bullets will also take game animals (where legal) due to deep penetration and bullet toughness. They might bend like a pretzel, but I've never found one that fragmented.

Case preparation is THE Primary focus for precision ammunition. Not interested? Well, why waste your time at all? Plenty of cheap, junk ammo being sold. Buy that, or spend more and get something like match quality? Of course, match ammo costs about $1.50 per round for .223/5.56 and goes up in cost from there, unless on sale... I load Better Quality handloads for about $175 per 250rds. This including 1x fired military brass. Drops to about $125 if I have brass already. Of course, I am not factoring in tool cost here...

Presuming you are assured of a precision gunsmithed rifle with correctly fitted mount system and optic, precision ammunition is the biggest element in the accuracy equation. Of course, it will take precision ammunition and knowledgeable application of technique to determine if even "the best" rifle is correctly chambered and assembled.

Everything "good" in precision shooting really begins with precision ammunition tailored to your specific piece.
 
Just note - there are many different opinions regarding brass. Some I have give me great performance, others do not. Still looking for the definitive answer on why weight sorting - opinion are all over the place.
 
Fred Sinclair had a small Ibico bound manual on handloading and scope mounting, last published back in the early-mid 90s. There is other great info in the Precision Shooting Benchrest Primer, and no doubt, in the reloading book by the guy who did The Competitive AR books 1&2.

I've never been looking for that last 5 ten-thousandths of group tightness, so never sorted brass by weight. Sinclair or Benchrest Primer discussed starting with a bulk lot of 200 or so and sorting brass to within 1-2gr of mean avg, with an over/under pile for each larger variant piece. Once sorted, you sort your mean avg pile and go to tighter weight tolerance keeping closest weights in specific firing order. Of course, after sorting, it's time to uniform primer pockets, deburr flash holes, FL size, and then trim; then you weigh again...

Hopefully, out of 200pcs you get a decent number of minimal weight variants. Or, you buy Lapua...

Lapua is not the panacea so many claim. I had a lot of 500pcs of .308win which had what I thought were very loose primer pockets. Heard later that Winchester primers are a tiny bit smaller in the OD and were problematic sometimes.... I had over 100 in that batch that were not tight enough for Win primers. Luckily, held onto them and didn't trash them... But, I do like Win LR primers... Oh well...
 
I m interested in why it matters if you do full length resizing. Please explain. How will it bite you?

That's a fair question.

Let me begin this summary with a bit of an introduction. I'm not going to get into a big discussion of SAAMI minimums and maximums for chambers and cartridges as you can read all about that elsewhere ad-nausia. Suffice to say that cartridge maximums are set by SAAMI to always be less than chamber minimums in order to ensure that all new brass will always fit in all properly headspaced new chambers. However, these standards are for factory loaded ammo, not for reloads. Reloading die manufacturers understand full well that the difference between SAAMI minimum chamber and maximum cartridge is not conducive to best accuracy. In fact, this difference is just one of the many reasons why we reload. It surely isn't really about cost savings...:rolleyes: That's just what we tell our wives..... ;) ideally, we want to get rid of all that slop that SAMMI builds into its chamber and cartridge specifications so that our reloads are more closely aligned concentric to the bore when chambered. So most full length sizing dies get rid of most of the slop and size brass cases to be as close as possible to what is required to fit all chambers with as little slop as possible. Cheap dies may not be so close. And of course, neck dies don't size the body of the case at all to eliminate the slop.

With that as background, here is a sample of the kinds of things that have been encountered and resolved on this forum:

It turns out that very few full length sizing dies really size back to OEM brass specs. Using a high quality micrometer, measure some new never-fired brass in multiple places. Then fire them and resize them. The new brass is almost always still smaller than the resized brass in numerous places.

Although not as effective, but faster, you might also be able to see this by removing the neck expander button and depriming stem from the die and dropping in some new unfired brass. If it drops in without any effort its obvious proof that unfired brass is smaller than resized brass will be. For most dies, the new brass will probably even rattle around in there.

Note - lest anyone think this is a bad thing, rest assured that it is not. Ideally, brass should NOT be resized back to OEM size. It should be sized just enough to chamber freely with a little allowance for dust for hunting, and no allowance for targets.

In addition to that, the brass web will grow/expand over time and full length sizer dies seldom size the web itself, just the case immediately above the web. This is why many die manufacturers make special "small base dies" for sensitive chambers (eg Browning BAR).

The above all assumes a high quality full length sizing die set to full depth on the shell holder. Any less than that is potentially worse.

Best accuracy with full length dies is usually obtained by "bumping" the shoulder a small amount. Doing anything else won't be reaching the full accuracy potential of the rifle.

Very few case holders are the same size. In fact, Redding sells custom case holders with different lengths to allow the reloader to customize the sizing of the case.

Cases spring back about a thousandth of an inch after firing or sizing. This dimension and effect also grows over time.

And last but not least, even the very best reloading press has some spring in it. No matter how stiff or strong the press is, it will bend a little as it resists the load - and so do the dies. It's impossible to do otherwise because there is no such thing as infinite stiffness. As cases age with use, they get stiffer too and this causes even more flex in the dies and press.

In summary, the likelihood of problems is somewhat dependent on the manufacturer of the rifles, the chamber dimensions, the manufacturer of the dies and the dimensions they chose, the number of times brass has been resized, and last, but not least - the dimensional variance between the different rifle chambers and bolt headspace involved. Time is not your friend in this game as it takes time for the brass to grow, while at the same time it makes us more and more comfortable until.... time runs out.

I trust that is sufficient to explain why problems are inevitable. Your last question was "How will it bite you?"

The problems that eventually occur are:
- stuck brass in the rifle chamber
- bolts that won't close
- bolts that won't open
- broken bolts
- galled bolt lugs
- deformed and damaged bolt cams
- separated heads
- blowback in the face

If you look, you can find examples of each of these on this and other forums. Nobody wants even one of these problems with any rifle at the range let alone miles from help out hunting.

Its so easy to avoid. Using brass in just one rifle makes sure the brass won't grow beyond the dimensions of the chamber and headspace and also reduces the amount of full length sizing required so that maximum accuracy is achieved. And yes, I know that excessive loads cause similar problems. But that's another subject.

I mark all my ammo boxes with the caliber and the rifle that ammo is used in.

Cheers!
 
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Nothing wrong with full length resizing at all most guys will only bump the shoulder back around .003 if their loading for a single gun this works the brass very little and you get reliable chambering. Neck sizing will after a couple to a few firings need to be full length resized or you may get rounds that won't chamber guys that are doing this are chasing accuracy and are aware that they will be FL resizing after so many firings. For hunting and some competition disciplines FL resizing is the best option as your assured the rounds will chamber every time nothing worse than the 30 pointer standing in front of you and your follow up round won't chamber because your on firing number five of neck only sizing. Loading for multiply weapons the only choice is FL resizing does this work the brass more yes could you possibly get incipient head separation because one of the guns has a chamber on the larger size of the SAMMI spec yes as I alluded to in my earlier post.

I believe it was Ronald Reagan that said "It's not that Liberials don't know anything it's just that so much of what they know is wrong" I love that quote it can be applied to so many different people not just Liberials.
 
I would use Lapua for those cartridges. I've been using Lapua for just a few years but my experience is you might have to open up the case necks on new brass and you're ready to load. On the 6mm Creedmoor brass I didn't even have to do that.

Lapua is generally considered a little less volume and therefore getting to pressure quicker. However I recently measured case volume on some .308 Win brass. Lapua came up with 55.4 gr of water weight and Federal Gold Metal Match had 55.3 gr of water weight.

I don't think the volume difference can be considered a significant powder cost savings.
I have seen this metric, and was wondering how did you measure case volume?
 
Just note - there are many different opinions regarding brass. Some I have give me great performance, others do not. Still looking for the definitive answer on why weight sorting - opinion are all over the place.


Without getting into all of the differences of opinions. I feel that ANY way you can get consistency is a plus. Weight sorting, volume testing, trimming, neck turning, measuring bullets for ojive length, diameter and weight, Annealing ;ETC. are all ways of getting better consistency.

Consistency and predictability normally improves accuracy if the shooter is proficient. Weight sorting is just one of the ways to improve consistency whether or not you believe in doing it or some other method.

J E CUSTOM
 
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